Manticore Plague Years

hanuman wrote:But Eddings wasn't the only author who had a hate on for rutabaga farmers! I think Mr Flint used it too, in one of his books.

I haven't researched the exact dates, but I'm pretty sure that Fulrach, King of Sendaria, is the prototypical Rutabaga Farmer in all of Fantasy; As far as I'm concerned, every rutabaga farmer reference since then is a pop-culture reference to King Fulrach.

Because, like you, so many of the younger generations discovered Fantasy and SF through the Belgariad. (My generation, otoh, found Fantasy via the Wizard of OZ and SF through Heinlein's juveniles like Podkayne of Mars.

hanuman wrote:<snippity snip>

Btw, how big was Roger Winton's initial investment? I mean, after the change to a monarchy, all the 'land' that wasn't awarded as shares became Crown property, right? But as I understand things, Crown property does not necessarily mean PERSONAL property of the monarch, or does it?

I think it must have been quite large, perhaps as much as half or more. I think also that the Crown Lands are mostly the lands held in trust by the Crown, rather than the personal property of the monarch him or herself. I imagine quite a few of the lands are developed, but given the vastness of an entire solar system, it'd be much too difficult for one person to try and develop it all.

While they probably are held under the name of the Monarchy, what they probably really represent is basically a vast reserve of untapped capital that can be generated if the government gets into a pinch, by leasing the rights or selling them outright if the situation is dire enough. As well, they also represent something else Manticore will be needing later on: Living space. The three planets are by no means filled up, and they'll need places to expand as the population grows.

Weird Harold wrote:

hanuman wrote:But Eddings wasn't the only author who had a hate on for rutabaga farmers! I think Mr Flint used it too, in one of his books.

I haven't researched the exact dates, but I'm pretty sure that Fulrach, King of Sendaria, is the prototypical Rutabaga Farmer in all of Fantasy; As far as I'm concerned, every rutabaga farmer reference since then is a pop-culture reference to King Fulrach.

Because, like you, so many of the younger generations discovered Fantasy and SF through the Belgariad. (My generation, otoh, found Fantasy via the Wizard of OZ and SF through Heinlein's juveniles like Podkayne of Mars.

The first SF I recall reading (and I still have the same copy of the book) was Jules Verne's A Journey to the Centre of the Earth. I was seven or eight years old.

From around the same time, the first fantasy I remember reading (and I now have a new-ish copy of the book) was Norton Juster's The Phantom Tollbooth.

hanuman wrote:I suppose that undertakings like extracting minerals would be tailor-made for joint ventures, with a number of people or families pooling their shares and then working together under some kind of charter to develop their collective mineral rights. And there were obviously other industries that could be developed in the same manner.

But that still leaves us with the fact that, in order to join the colony expedition, each colonist or family of colonists had to make a substantial investment in the expedition (remember that there were several billion Eurodollars left after purchasing the colonisation rights, a ship AND outfitting the expedition, with only about 20-30 000 investors contributing).

That'd leave the expedition with a whole lot of shareholders who'd each receive a substantial share at arrival, and almost no one at all to fill the new society's 'working class' niche. And there would have been a need for workers, and not just owners or joint entrepreneurs - there always is, even in a technologically highly-advanced society.

Btw, how big was Roger Winton's initial investment? I mean, after the change to a monarchy, all the 'land' that wasn't awarded as shares became Crown property, right? But as I understand things, Crown property does not necessarily mean PERSONAL property of the monarch, or does it?

Some colonists probably invested a minimum amount, and fully expected to be working for other people when they got there.

But you still are ignoring the suggestion that I have made several times now, that for the first couple decades there would not be any need for large-scale industrial work and large numbers of workers. Their children, when they grow old enough, will be able to fill those roles, since they won't have any property of their own until they can afford to purchase it.

SWM wrote:SNIP Their children, when they grow old enough, will be able to fill those roles, since they won't have any property of their own until they can afford to purchase it.

Inherit you mean?

Only when the available resources is less than the pool of people does the younger generation have to purchase their own.

Initial infrastructure for the first hundred years or so of any colony is going to swallow most of the GDP. There will not be much in the way of "tech" other than basic mining able to provide basic machinery for clearing/farming/water/building(roads(airways)/homes) infrastructure. Along these lines will be chemical plants able to produce goods and medicenes they are familiar with. Only after these basic needs are taken care of will the new colony look to start upgradeing their tech base and get into more mass production. You also do not need mass production when your population is small. In fact, mass production is unprofitable for small production runs.

Only once the basic infrastructure is in place can the nebulous "they", be it original colonists or original colonists who want to start mass production and selling to other worlds, then afford to bring a second wave of migrants in at a much lower cost/share value.

SWM wrote:

hanuman wrote:I suppose that undertakings like extracting minerals would be tailor-made for joint ventures, with a number of people or families pooling their shares and then working together under some kind of charter to develop their collective mineral rights. And there were obviously other industries that could be developed in the same manner.

But that still leaves us with the fact that, in order to join the colony expedition, each colonist or family of colonists had to make a substantial investment in the expedition (remember that there were several billion Eurodollars left after purchasing the colonisation rights, a ship AND outfitting the expedition, with only about 20-30 000 investors contributing).

That'd leave the expedition with a whole lot of shareholders who'd each receive a substantial share at arrival, and almost no one at all to fill the new society's 'working class' niche. And there would have been a need for workers, and not just owners or joint entrepreneurs - there always is, even in a technologically highly-advanced society.

Btw, how big was Roger Winton's initial investment? I mean, after the change to a monarchy, all the 'land' that wasn't awarded as shares became Crown property, right? But as I understand things, Crown property does not necessarily mean PERSONAL property of the monarch, or does it?

Some colonists probably invested a minimum amount, and fully expected to be working for other people when they got there.

But you still are ignoring the suggestion that I have made several times now, that for the first couple decades there would not be any need for large-scale industrial work and large numbers of workers. Their children, when they grow old enough, will be able to fill those roles, since they won't have any property of their own until they can afford to purchase it.

I'm not ignoring the question, SWM. I actually addressed it in my first post re this subject. The question is this, namely where the colonists would have got their equivalent of spades and picks once the equipment the colony expedition took with it broke down. Without regular resupply lines they were going to have to be dependent on themselves to manufacture replacements, but who were going to do the work?

I'm NOT debating this matter. I'm trying to understand how a top-heavy colonial expedition planned to function without anyone to fill the 'working class' niche, and thus far your answer above is the closest one that actually makes sense.

It seems to me that what you are saying, is that the expedition's organisers allowed for some investors to make a minimal investment, with the expectation that their share of the new colony would be small enough to force them to serve as a general hire pool for the rest of the colony. Is that right?

Just because someone is titled nobility, there is NO reason that they can't work both hard and smart at a job or profession such as farming. Besides, titles don't do you much good if you are starving to death because you have nothing to swap for food.

We have skipped over what basic equipment the original colonists would have brought with them to grow crops, extract mineral resources and fabricate needed tools. That would be at least a novel in itself. Other than an expectation that they also brought (based on the original FTL survey ships information) in the way of animals that could be used as work as well as food sources, they would have brought at least "basic" farming related equipment and tools.

Initial priorties would have included setting up shelter, medical facilities, communication and getting in the initial food crops (which would also include a percentage as seed for the next cycle). At the same time they would have been exploring to get a better practical handle on the land (and sea) resources and where things could intialy be placed. By this time in the development of planitary colonies, things that were considered basic such as power satellites plus communication and GPS systems placed in space and with "basic" ground stations would have been shipped. Maintaining such systems would be a priority as would keeping the ability to manufacture new units as well as replacement parts for what you brought along.
Whatever the number that actually arrived in the first colony ship, they would not have been able to count on devoting 80 to 90% of the adults to manual production of food with horse drawn plows etc. That kind of thing would have crashed the colony because there would have been very few left unemployed at food and shelter to keep the higher tech equipment either running or manufacturing anything like spare parts or new equipment to expand.

If they had the expectation of getting additional supplies and equipment via the developing hyperspace vessels, then some space on those frigates would have been both updated farming/manufacturing equipment and more advanced methods of manufacture.

I am going to take a wild guess and say that the people who were left incharge of the Trust and Corporation on Earth would be getting shares in the colony, probably both from actual capital contributions and from earning-in through work. They would have a vested interest in the success of the colony and expect (along with their children/grandchildren etc) to become members of it. So they would do the best job they were capable of to both grow the funding and to support it in other ways. That would include searching out what should be sent as follow-on equipment (like the frigates to both protect the claim, have more "basic" equipment waiting in orbit, be the nucleus of a guard force and the teachers mentioned earlier) to support the planting of the colony and expidite the expansion. They are going to have to aim to become self-sufficient in both food and a certain minimal level of advanced techincal and manufacturing in order to survive. That means being at least able to make more of what they need- and build/operate the machines (and sources to usable state of materials to be turned into equipment) to a level to maintain "civilization".

Weird Harold wrote:

hanuman wrote:But Eddings wasn't the only author who had a hate on for rutabaga farmers! I think Mr Flint used it too, in one of his books.

I haven't researched the exact dates, but I'm pretty sure that Fulrach, King of Sendaria, is the prototypical Rutabaga Farmer in all of Fantasy; As far as I'm concerned, every rutabaga farmer reference since then is a pop-culture reference to King Fulrach.

Because, like you, so many of the younger generations discovered Fantasy and SF through the Belgariad. (My generation, otoh, found Fantasy via the Wizard of OZ and SF through Heinlein's juveniles like Podkayne of Mars.

I think Eddings' best work probably is the Belgariad/Mallorean saga. I enjoyed the Elenium/Tamuli saga as well, but after that his work seemed to become really formulaic. And, on a personal note, I REALLY disliked the way that every single 'gay' character he ever wrote turned out to be a sleazy, effeminate bastard who molests little boys.

I'm not saying that an author doesn't have the right to write what he wants. Eddings can write all he wants, but when every 'gay' character he writes has the exact same nature, it's obvious that there's an agenda there, which I refuse to support. So I stopped buying his books.

Brigade XO wrote:Just because someone is titled nobility, there is NO reason that they can't work both hard and smart at a job or profession such as farming. Besides, titles don't do you much good if you are starving to death because you have nothing to swap for food.

We have skipped over what basic equipment the original colonists would have brought with them to grow crops, extract mineral resources and fabricate needed tools. That would be at least a novel in itself. Other than an expectation that they also brought (based on the original FTL survey ships information) in the way of animals that could be used as work as well as food sources, they would have brought at least "basic" farming related equipment and tools.

Initial priorties would have included setting up shelter, medical facilities, communication and getting in the initial food crops (which would also include a percentage as seed for the next cycle). At the same time they would have been exploring to get a better practical handle on the land (and sea) resources and where things could intialy be placed. By this time in the development of planitary colonies, things that were considered basic such as power satellites plus communication and GPS systems placed in space and with "basic" ground stations would have been shipped. Maintaining such systems would be a priority as would keeping the ability to manufacture new units as well as replacement parts for what you brought along.
Whatever the number that actually arrived in the first colony ship, they would not have been able to count on devoting 80 to 90% of the adults to manual production of food with horse drawn plows etc. That kind of thing would have crashed the colony because there would have been very few left unemployed at food and shelter to keep the higher tech equipment either running or manufacturing anything like spare parts or new equipment to expand.

If they had the expectation of getting additional supplies and equipment via the developing hyperspace vessels, then some space on those frigates would have been both updated farming/manufacturing equipment and more advanced methods of manufacture.

I am going to take a wild guess and say that the people who were left incharge of the Trust and Corporation on Earth would be getting shares in the colony, probably both from actual capital contributions and from earning-in through work. They would have a vested interest in the success of the colony and expect (along with their children/grandchildren etc) to become members of it. So they would do the best job they were capable of to both grow the funding and to support it in other ways. That would include searching out what should be sent as follow-on equipment (like the frigates to both protect the claim, have more "basic" equipment waiting in orbit, be the nucleus of a guard force and the teachers mentioned earlier) to support the planting of the colony and expidite the expansion. They are going to have to aim to become self-sufficient in both food and a certain minimal level of advanced techincal and manufacturing in order to survive. That means being at least able to make more of what they need- and build/operate the machines (and sources to usable state of materials to be turned into equipment) to a level to maintain "civilization".

Thank you, Brigade. That actually makes quite a lot of sense, in terms of how colonial expeditions were planned and undertaken.

hanuman wrote:I'm NOT debating this matter. I'm trying to understand how a top-heavy colonial expedition planned to function without anyone to fill the 'working class' niche, and thus far your answer above is the closest one that actually makes sense.

Part of the difficulty in understanding is the "top heavy colonial expedition" image.

The fact that they were willing to travel in deep-freeze for 650 years to colonize a new planet would suggest they were all "working class." They may have been rich "working class" but they didn't go to Manticore expecting to be aristocrats or live a soft life on the backs of servants. They went to Manticore to challenge themselves against a virgin wilderness.

It was only after 40-50 years when the Plague devastated the population and they imported a "worker class" that the aristocracy we know and love started to evolve.