Beowulf right to Leave the SL

kzt wrote:No, they should have SIGs.

Amen! Love the pic. Great deterrant to would be rapers.

Last post about this on this thread, I will say:
Lotta stuff I want to respond to, and even RFC has been dragged back off topic on this, but I will just say 2 things: 1: making drug illegal in the US has certainly removed and shunk the black market of them, why I hardly ever hear of drug related deaths or busts worth millions of dollars.
2: I love that we have the right to discuss this in a calm and reasoned manner between ourselves. This is a big part of what makes America great! Now lets shift this topic to the politics subforum and shift this post back to the right to leave.

Tenshinai wrote:No it doesn´t. Living in a Nordic country here, you know one of those strange places that has had lots of govt influence and control in general, and people generally don´t mind it much.

Because it doesn´t actually matter as long as that control isn´t oppressive.

SNIP

Crimea has openly and repeatedly requested federalisation due to the mismanagement the Kiev governments have treated the nation with almost since from the start.

Crimea even had a regional vote in the early 90s with a result skyhigh towards demanding federalisation back to where it was under the USSR time(or under Russian rule post USSR).

This is the same problem as with the rest of the "separatists", most of them are NOT separatists, but federalists, wanting more regional independence from Kiev.

Then, Crimea holds the only "southwestern" port for Russia, and with Kiev starting to talk about defaulting on the deals for that after a nationalist coup sponsored by NATO, EU and USA...

Uh, no. There´s pretty much zero correlation.

Yes, Nordic lands. Fantastic places, that I truly wish to visit in my life... however (you knew it was coming) I have had this discussion with one of my professors years ago. You have all the Gov't control you want and the free education and free healthcare. And... well no to be in-politic but the nordic nations tend to keep to themselves, much like the systems of the SL, not caring what happens outside its borders in the "neo-barb" systems. Very rarely reaching out, and when they do so its in token supoort, like the Renasiance Association, it was mentioned in a book that while they had high morals, they accomplished very little.

As for Crimea... The willing joined themselves to Ukraine, and the Ukraine Consitution specifically says that it is an indivisible nation. To me that says no one sction has the right to leave. I am sure if they worked hard enough they could get legislation to leave, and we definatley seperated ourselves from Britain "illegaly" so I am not completely unsympathetic. I only had a problem with the reports of Russian troops in Crimea before the vote was cast.

You seem to have missed the 100 or so ISLN SDs that showed up,a couple of books back, wanting to jump through the link from Beowulf to Manticore. When they discovered they did not have overwhelming superiority, they backed off. However, they are still there, available to be smited. ("smitten" has a different specific meaning, albeit that it is the right tense,)

SWM wrote:

phillies wrote:This thread seems to have wandered an unusually large amount.

Beowulf making a peaceful secession is much more likely to avoid an overwhelming response from the SL, as opposed to Beowulf seceding and promptly using the Beowulf SDF to smite the local ISLN task force. The analogy in American history is the 8 original states seceding and promptly going to peaceful negotiations rather than shooting at Fort Sumter.

Mind you, much more is likely still a small number, in that the Mandarins wish to retain control.

Secession of Verge states after the RMN smites their OFS garrisons is more likely to be a plot element in the future.

There is no SLN task force in Beowulf. Beowulf does not intend to "smite the local ISLN task force." The SLN is sending a task force specifically to disrupt the vote on Beowulf. They are trying to get in their overwhelming response before the vote. If the navy succeeds in getting into orbit, there will be no chance for a peaceful secession. The government will be arrested, an emergency governor will be installed, and the secession vote will be cancelled. If there is any resistance, military force will be used, and they will try to blame the whole thing on Manticoran agitators.

They withdrew from Beowulf. They're not still hanging around the system.

Tenshinai wrote:

biochem wrote:It also appears to me that there is a great deal of "might makes right" at play as well. To throw in another hot political topic, the Mandarins' attitude toward Beowulf reminds me a great deal of Putin's attitude toward the Crimea. Except that in Putin's case he really did have the might to back up his attitude while in the case of the SL their might is in their own heads.

Crimea has openly and repeatedly requested federalisation due to the mismanagement the Kiev governments have treated the nation with almost since from the start.

Crimea even had a regional vote in the early 90s with a result skyhigh towards demanding federalisation back to where it was under the USSR time(or under Russian rule post USSR).

This is the same problem as with the rest of the "separatists", most of them are NOT separatists, but federalists, wanting more regional independence from Kiev.

Then, Crimea holds the only "southwestern" port for Russia, and with Kiev starting to talk about defaulting on the deals for that after a nationalist coup sponsored by NATO, EU and USA...

Uh, no. There´s pretty much zero correlation.

The biggest correlation is in the attitudes of Putin and the Mandarins, which is basically I want it, It is mine, You will vote to join/keep me/us or my military will smite you. Neither actually cares much whether 98% of the population wants to join/keep him/them or 0.98%. They only care inasmuch as it would be easier to force their will with a compliant population. But whether or not the population is on their side they intend to take what they want by force of arms if necessary.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/le ... 3-2012.xls

Try getting your facts straight rather than spewing propaganda.

n7axw wrote:I guess I am going to have to weigh in on the other side. I have no desire to deny constitutional rights.

As for the right to seceed, that is now settled, not with legal arguments but in blood at places like Gettysburg, Shiloh and so on. Consequently there is no right of sucession, whatever the framers might have intended to start with.

As for the gun arguments, ccould we please have some practical sense? No one, least of all me has any particular objection to guns in the possession of responsible people, but look at what we actually have:

1.criminal gangs in some our cities who actually outgun the police who are trying to apprehend them.

2.Deranged individuals who wander through college campuses and yes, even grade schools shooting kids...easy access to guns guaranteed.

3.people who live in dangerous neighborhoods afraid to let their children out to play for fear they will be shot.

Gang, the way we tolerate this crap is both outrageous and stupid to say nothing of morally reprehensible. On a personal level, I find it offensive when the pro-gun people talk like their right to bear arms is more important than my right to walk down the street without the fear of getting shot.

Don

namelessfly wrote:http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2012/tables/table_35_leos_fk_with_firearms_type_of_firearm_and_size_of_ammunition_2003-2012.xls

Try getting your facts straight rather than spewing propaganda.

n7axw wrote:I guess I am going to have to weigh in on the other side. I have no desire to deny constitutional rights.

As for the right to seceed, that is now settled, not with legal arguments but in blood at places like Gettysburg, Shiloh and so on. Consequently there is no right of sucession, whatever the framers might have intended to start with.

As for the gun arguments, ccould we please have some practical sense? No one, least of all me has any particular objection to guns in the possession of responsible people, but look at what we actually have:

1.criminal gangs in some our cities who actually outgun the police who are trying to apprehend them.

2.Deranged individuals who wander through college campuses and yes, even grade schools shooting kids...easy access to guns guaranteed.

3.people who live in dangerous neighborhoods afraid to let their children out to play for fear they will be shot.

Gang, the way we tolerate this crap is both outrageous and stupid to say nothing of morally reprehensible. On a personal level, I find it offensive when the pro-gun people talk like their right to bear arms is more important than my right to walk down the street without the fear of getting shot.

Don

Nameless, Don is trying to be civil about this. I don't personally agree with the examples he's cited; there are people --- including folks right here in the US, who (in my opinion) should have a better picture of the facts and the disputed facts coming from both sides of this debate --- who would agree with them and with his conclusion. Some of those people have lost sons, daughters, sisters, or brothers to gun violence, and while I reject their logic and their conclusions about how best to deal with this particular political and social questions, I have to respect their right to feel that way.

If you think Don's points are incorrect or that his proposed solution to the problems he feels exist won't work or are legally/morally less than ideal, then tell him so and provide the appropriate links (which you did) to support your view on them. I think we could do that withough accusing him of "spewing propaganda." I might go so far as allowing "unquestioningly accepting propaganda at face value" in this instance but I think "spew" is a rather visceral verb (double entendre intended ) and one we could eschew in civil discourse.

dreamrider wrote:That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Ah, but the League would only have the word of the, obviously coerced or quisling, Beowulfan representative that those ships aren't full of Manticoran sailors and marines there to forcibly oversee a rigged and invalid election.

Of course the League could argue the foreign ships aren't under Beowulfan control. (Truth matters not; perception is everything)

dreamrider wrote:That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Further, if you will read back over all recent battle scenes, especially those between SLN/RMN, the only force that shows ability to ID ships in more detail than general type at engagement ranges is the RMN. They do that with visuals from recon drones, generally, not by drive signature. In fact, the only way that SLN vessels have positively identified task groups as even "Manty" at long ranges is when the RMN force was choosing to accel/decal at rates impossible to other navies. (Well, not really impossible to several others, but the SLN doesn't get that yet.)

Visuals might give some (unjustified, erroneous) talking points, though not with the Beowulfan public or any Beowulfan daughter Core colonies, where it would really count. But no SLN task force that attempts to approach Beowulf after this swap is in place is ever going to get into visual range, even with lightspeed drones. Don't forget that lend/lease SD(P)s could also control a hefty portion of the already deployed SysDef pods, as well...via Hermes bouys, even.

dreamrider

Actually, the RMN seem to be somewhat better than you give them credit for. They can tell from the drive pattern whether the contact is friend or foe, but not necessarily what class a ship is (as opposed to ship type), at long ago as the first Havenite/Manticoran war.

The Short Victorious War, Chapter 19 wrote:"Captain, I'm picking up a hyper footprint at two-zero-six," Commander Chandler announced. "One drive source, range six-point-niner-five light-minutes. It's too heavy for a courier boat, Ma'am."
Honor looked at the tac officer in faint surprise, but Chandler didn't notice as she queried her computers and worked the contact. Several seconds passed, and then she straightened with a satisfied nod.
"Definitely a Manticoran drive pattern, Ma'am. Looks like a heavy cruiser. I won't know for sure till the light-speed sensors have her."
"Understood. Keep an eye on her, Eve."
"Aye, aye, Ma'am."

Boldface is my emphasis.

RFC is correct and I apologize.

I should not have been so harsh in my criticism of someone who was merely repeating misinformation regarding the police being outgunned by criminals that they would have no way of knowing was untrue unless they had been willing to do some serious research. Even the NRA was reluctant to dispute the claims about police killings during the debate over the Clinton gun ban. Barrett firearms was unusual for being wise enough to accept the caliber specific information that I forwarded to them regarding the myth that the ATF agents killed at Waco were killed with full auto AK-47s and .50 BMG Barrett rifles. (Of course almost no one wanted to take note of the fact that all of the deceased agents were killed with singular gunshot wounds to the head from projectiles of calibers that were consistent with the rifles being employed by the ATF sniper team who somehow managed to fire three dozen rounds without hitting any of the Branch Davidians). The FBI's Supplementary Homicide Reports conclusively debunk the myth that inner city gangs and drug dealers are using assault rifles (they almost never use rifles of any type), but few people are willing to Wade through 1,000 plus pages of computer printout. The police would prefer that people not take note of the SHRs because then they might start asking embarrassing questions about why so many inner city police agencies fail to solve the vast majority of homicides that occur in their jurisdictions. Asking such embarrassing questions might lead to the citizenry firing most police or even arresting them for loitering.

Hi Jonathan_S,

Given the vote was two month's or ~60 days after the de bate, and the debate or vote in the EC was in July, maybe August, the Beowulf plebiscite will be in September or October; I wouldn't be surprised that it's already happened, since CoG ended in late October and HA-H was not worried about it.

The loaner's would be a good idea, but I'm not sure they're needed because the BSDF are better especially with far fire control than the SLN has ever suspected.

OTOH, we don't know the size of the 36 BSDF SD's but if around 7 MT, they might tractor 480-508 pods each, enough to have a couple hundred Apollo's each besides 25% for ECM for ~500 BF SD's, which might require ~4 Invictuses quietly supporting the BSDF if the Spindle tactic isn't used.

Given the way the SLN ignores LAC's, the BSDF's might be nearer the RMN's than we expect.

But an RMN fleet popping out after the SLN is stuck inside the H-L could be very interesting as they pop one BF SD after another until they all surrender.

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

dreamrider wrote:That's the beauty of the swap/training/lend-lease agreement...nothing has to be hidden (although any approaching SLN task force will be a little in the dark - pesky communications loop).

With Beowulfan captains, and Beowulfan majority crews, no one can really argue that the ships were not under Beowulfan control. My comment about the paint job was really more in the nature of humorous window dressing.

Ah, but the League would only have the word of the, obviously coerced or quisling, Beowulfan representative that those ships aren't full of Manticoran sailors and marines there to forcibly oversee a rigged and invalid election.

Of course the League could argue the foreign ships aren't under Beowulfan control. (Truth matters not; perception is everything)