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New Freighter Design.

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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:17 pm

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Relax wrote:Erewhon missiles and pods would still have the improved, grav drivers, ECM, capacitors, acceleration, etc. All better than anything anyone in the SL has. Without the improved grav drivers you do not have viable pods. One of the big themes of SVW.


The tech level Erewhon shared with Haven and is sharing with Maya is tech that is already compromised. The Cataphract missiles and pods supplied to Filareta had most of the tech Erewhon level missiles and pods could provide.

The original pods had anti-tampering devices and the current generation probably do as well; if not, they can't be that hard to reinstall.

If capture of technology is a serious concern, the capture of an intact LAC would do far more damage that the capture of a missile pod or two, especially if they didn't have any missiles left.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:46 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:The tech level Erewhon shared with Haven and is sharing with Maya is tech that is already compromised. The Cataphract missiles and pods supplied to Filareta had most of the tech Erewhon level missiles and pods could provide.
The Catapracts are missing the increased endurance missile impeller nodes used by the Erewhonese version of Manticore's Mk14 ERM. (Although Technodyne clearly has something similar, if probably not so refined, as the oversize podded missiles they provided to Monica appear to have 50% longer run times than the classic 60 seconds at full power (or 180 seconds at 50%) we've seen through in normal missiles.

Also I think Erewhon has, through Haven, the trick to the true MDM. Knowing about "the baffle", and even the outline of how it works, would be a huge help to the MAlign in their attempt to develop true MDMs, not the 2-stage hack job of the Cataphract.

But Erewhon seems to be somewhat careful about who they sell their tech to. It's probably somewhat easier get illicit access to than top of the line Manticoran equipment, but they don't appear to be selling it to anyone who walks in off the street with a suitcase full of credit chips. I don't see that level of tech as inherently compromised; not where the MAlign or League is concerned.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:37 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But Erewhon seems to be somewhat careful about who they sell their tech to.


The point is that the technology that makes missile pods viable is not under Manticoran control; Haven has it, Erewhon has it, Anderman has it, Technodyne has it, Maya has it, and who knows who else has it.

As for the missile drive tech -- it is difficult to steal tech from missiles when you're dodging them.

If you won't use advanced technology then you effectively have no advanced technology.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:00 pm

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Just because you have magnetic proximity fused AA does not mean you should use them everywhere. Did you see such tech being placed on merchantmen in WWII? No. Only an obsolete deck gun was installed, just on the off chance they spied a sub on the surface and decided to annoy it. Same goes for its AA ability. I have to wonder if there were ANY documented instances where said deck gun actually downed an airplane. Even an obsolescent Biplane. Well this should be an interesting search. :D

Erewhon has the super capacitors along with Haven. Haven got them by reverse engineering RMN stuff. Erewhon's capacitors are still superior. We assume that the IAN also has them, but their DDM's were gigantic, so who knows. Part of joining the alliance, we can infer was the disclosure of super capacitors. No one else has this tech. This equals far smaller missiles. Far better ECM power levels and you want to give this tech to merchantmen?

SLN has pods. Well sorta. Technodyne has them.

1) We have no idea how gigantic they are, except BIG
2) Technodyne pods became relevant because their missiles had extended range burn time and increased acceleration. Range is a squared function of time. Not because they used standard missiles with equivalent grav launch tubes on their pods as on a ship in miniture size as is done in RMN/Erewhon land. This is a linear relationship.
3) We have no idea if RHN has this shrunken grav driver either. We do know RHN was using pods with standard drive missiles. We also know that their range was not equivalent to Manticores, but got away with much larger missiles and larger warheads. Once MDM's came along, the shrunk grav driver became irrelevant regarding range. Still useful for packing more pods per ship, but tactically, fairly irrelevant.

Giving this tech to merchantmen is pretty stupid. No one has this tech outside the RMN/GSN/Erewhon. To some degree we can assume IAN and maybe RHN has this as well.

Now the only fork in logic is, what tech from the 1st war did the RHN share with Technodyne? All we know from the books, was that very little was actually shared. Could this be the shrunk pod grav driers? Could be. We have no idea.

Anywhoo
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:17 pm

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I know it is cheap and hardly a good "search", but here is a wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman

Look down at the list on bottom. All these armed merchantmen did absolutlely nothing in 2 world wars. Exactly 1 AMC got lucky and sunk a prehistoric WWI submarine. A couple were able to be operated as Q ships and attack other freighters. Otherwise, they were all sunk without doing a damned thing.

Only thing that saved the merchantmen in the Atlantic were the converted merchant ship to an aircraft carrier. Effectively the AMC in HAE. They didn't carry cargo other than the combustible kind...

PS. Anyone have a better source for AMC during the wars? Something I have honestly never read up on.
Last edited by Relax on Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:19 pm

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Relax wrote:Giving this tech to merchantmen is pretty stupid. No one has this tech outside the RMN/GSN/Erewhon. To some degree we can assume IAN and maybe RHN has this as well.


What part of "the missiles would remain under the control of RMN tactical specialists," are you having trouble with.

I am NOT advocating giving missile tech to merchantmen any more than others are advocating giving LACs to merchantmen.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Duckk   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:39 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:What part of "the missiles would remain under the control of RMN tactical specialists," are you having trouble with.

I am NOT advocating giving missile tech to merchantmen any more than others are advocating giving LACs to merchantmen.


http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/101/1

Neither the Republic nor the Star Kingdom (excuse me, Star Empire) is going to want to risk that sort of technology falling into the hands of a Manpower stooge aboard a disabled friendly vessel, especially not after what Technodyne tried to pull in the Battle of Monica.

And that's a concern in reference to disabled warships. Capturing a merchant vessel is leagues easier.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:59 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Relax wrote:Giving this tech to merchantmen is pretty stupid. No one has this tech outside the RMN/GSN/Erewhon. To some degree we can assume IAN and maybe RHN has this as well.


What part of "the missiles would remain under the control of RMN tactical specialists," are you having trouble with.

I am NOT advocating giving missile tech to merchantmen any more than others are advocating giving LACs to merchantmen.


Did you not read the practicality of doing this up thread? Spacers required?

Look up how many men were used manning guns on merchantmarine in WWII. They did absolutely nothing the entire war other than as a patsy PR move. A PR move that was the result of a lack in anti submarine warfare doctrine. By 1943 this doctrine existed, converted merchantmen to aircraft carriers along with fast reactionairy forces. Submarine freighter sinkings still happened, but were now on the short end of the stick, but the PR of "manning" the "helpless" merchantships still existed. They never actually DID anything, except provide warm fuzzies.

Freighters do not even have sidewalls. So, a single hit will destroy them if it comes close to a critical system. So, a frieghters entire succesful defensive rate would neccessarily depend entirely on seeing the DOGO, or stealthed DD, CL, privateer, warlord, pirate ship at a range allowing them to use longer ranged missiles than said enemy has. A freighter has no defense.

Previous post, or was it 2 posts ago, you just got done indicating, implying, going towards stating everyone is going to be getting Technodyne Cataphract missiles or LERM from Erewhon etc. Not that I agree with you but lets run down your line of reasoning. Ok. Last I checked, those missiles have 12-16Mkm range. So, your freighters only solution as a defenseless freighter would be full up MDM missiles allowing you to stay out of their newfound 12-16Mkm range and a sensor suite to actually see that far!

This only covers the offensive side. What about defense? Freighters are s-l-o-w maneuvering etc. Would ballistic missiles still take them out? Now you still need PDLC, CM along with those sensors and suites even at SDM ranges!

Guess what ain't gonna be happening? Arming ships with pods full of top secret CM/MDM's.

Guess what? War disrupts trade. Shocking deducement, I know.

Going to have to go to convoys. Q-ships/HAE AMC. Nodal systems giving friendly harbor. And guess what? Some places might just not see MMM anymore.
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:38 pm

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Relax wrote:I know it is cheap and hardly a good "search", but here is a wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_merchantman

Look down at the list on bottom. All these armed merchantmen did absolutlely nothing in 2 world wars. Exactly 1 AMC got lucky and sunk a prehistoric WWI submarine. A couple were able to be operated as Q ships and attack other freighters. Otherwise, they were all sunk without doing a damned thing.

Only thing that saved the merchantmen in the Atlantic were the converted merchant ship to an aircraft carrier. Effectively the AMC in HAE. They didn't carry cargo other than the combustible kind...

PS. Anyone have a better source for AMC during the wars? Something I have honestly never read up on.
They might not have done much against subs or airplanes, but "without doing a damned thing" is too harsh.

The German AMC raider Kormoran fought the CL HMAS Sydney to a mutual destruction.

And the US Liberty Ship SS Stephen Hopkins (w/ 1 4" gun and a couple 37mm AA guns) encountered and fought to mutual destruction the German AMC raider Steir (6 5.9" guns, 1 3" gun)

Those were two I knew off the top of my head.


And of course as commerce raiders the Germans AMC, like their raider Pinguin, were pretty successful (certainly more so than their conventional warships)
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Re: New Freighter Design.
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:59 pm

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Duckk wrote:Neither the Republic nor the Star Kingdom ...


Where does Erewhon fit into that assertion? Erewhon is already selling the tech suggested to Maya and neither the Republic or SEM seem to be upset about it -- possibly because Erewhon's tech is a couple of generations behind the SEM?
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