Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

n7axw wrote:Then there is the question: Do we want small systems in verge having their very own sds? It seems to me that they should better things to do with their resourses... like investing in education or upgrading medical care. Besides the more of the things there are out there, the more likely they are to be used by someone who decides to play conquistador.

Not a very optimal idea, I don't think.

Don

This is an important point, and a corollary is how many Verge systems would want or need superdreadnoughts. I forget the exact number, but hardly any governments have any wallers at all (about a dozen governments, I think?) And that includes individual members of the Solarian League as separate governments, too. At this point, we can name a lot of those systems; a majority of them are probably in either the Grand Alliance or the Renaissance Factor. Nobody else needs capital ships.

The current situation does not change that very much. A few governments might want to establish fleets for regional peace-keeping. Some may want to establish small empires, but I don't think Manticore would give them the means to do that. But other than that, there still no reason for Verge systems to build a navy of anything bigger than cruisers, or battlecruisers at most. Few need more than destroyers. And few economies are strong enough to support capital ships at all, except in direst need.

There is no reason for Manticore to distribute anything larger than a cruiser to any new systems.

SWM wrote:

n7axw wrote:Then there is the question: Do we want small systems in verge having their very own sds? It seems to me that they should better things to do with their resourses... like investing in education or upgrading medical care. Besides the more of the things there are out there, the more likely they are to be used by someone who decides to play conquistador.

Not a very optimal idea, I don't think.

Don

This is an important point, and a corollary is how many Verge systems would want or need superdreadnoughts. I forget the exact number, but hardly any governments have any wallers at all (about a dozen governments, I think?) And that includes individual members of the Solarian League as separate governments, too. At this point, we can name a lot of those systems; a majority of them are probably in either the Grand Alliance or the Renaissance Factor. Nobody else needs capital ships.

The current situation does not change that very much. A few governments might want to establish fleets for regional peace-keeping. Some may want to establish small empires, but I don't think Manticore would give them the means to do that. But other than that, there still no reason for Verge systems to build a navy of anything bigger than cruisers, or battlecruisers at most. Few need more than destroyers. And few economies are strong enough to support capital ships at all, except in direst need.

There is no reason for Manticore to distribute anything larger than a cruiser to any new systems.

If memory stands, about 100 polities (~4%) currently have 1 BB or better in their navies. 25 of those have 3-24 capitol ships and another 25 of them (1%) have 25 or more.

n7axw wrote:Then there is the question: Do we want small systems in verge having their very own sds? It seems to me that they should better things to do with their resourses... like investing in education or upgrading medical care.

It's always good if you ensure that your conquerors have healthy, well educated slaves.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:Then there is the question: Do we want small systems in verge having their very own sds? It seems to me that they should better things to do with their resourses... like investing in education or upgrading medical care.

It's always good if you ensure that your conquerors have healthy, well educated slaves.

And it is optimal to crew your sds which you really can't afford or properly support with uneducated ignoramoses..

My question is what is the point?

Don

I thought this particular horse was dead and buried (or turned into glue and dogwood).

Assume a population of two billion.

Consider the cost of healthcare and education of two billion people vs the salary of say 20,000 highly skilled naval types (crew plus support).

Typically, for developed nations healthcare and education would be at least 10% of GDP and possibly up to 17%. Given the it's been stated that prolong has a cost of many thousands of $M per person it's not likely to get a lot cheaper in the Honorverse.

What do you think is a reasonable pay scale for the crew vs the average person? Given that the crew is about 0.001% of the population, what percentage of GDP is this likely to take?

kzt wrote:Assume a population of two billion.

Consider the cost of healthcare and education of two billion people vs the salary of say 20,000 highly skilled naval types (crew plus support).

Typically, for developed nations healthcare and education would be at least 10% of GDP and possibly up to 17%. Given the it's been stated that prolong has a cost of many thousands of $M per person it's not likely to get a lot cheaper in the Honorverse.

What do you think is a reasonable pay scale for the crew vs the average person? Given that the crew is about 0.001% of the population, what percentage of GDP is this likely to take?

My point is this. Verge societies usually are more like Dresden than Manticore or even Grayson. They can productively use a few cruisers to dicourage pirates and that's about it. And being productively able to use them is not the same as being able to afford them.

What they need first and foremost is education for a competitive work force and finally an infusion of capital that will permit industrialization. As they start having enough to have someone think it might be worthwhile to take them over, they should be able to afford to build a navy to defend themselves. In the meantime, perhaps the best alternative is to make arrangements such as Torch had with Maya.

Sometimes those arrangements are hard if not impossible to come by. But I do expect that the GA will be providing a lot of that kind of help.

kzt wrote:Assume a population of two billion.

Consider the cost of healthcare and education of two billion people vs the salary of say 20,000 highly skilled naval types (crew plus support).

Typically, for developed nations healthcare and education would be at least 10% of GDP and possibly up to 17%. Given the it's been stated that prolong has a cost of many thousands of $M per person it's not likely to get a lot cheaper in the Honorverse.

What do you think is a reasonable pay scale for the crew vs the average person? Given that the crew is about 0.001% of the population, what percentage of GDP is this likely to take?

First of all, you are assuming that a typical Verge nation actually provides the healthcare and education of their population.

Second, you are grossly underestimating what it would take to be able to support a navy with superdreadnoughts. It is not just the pay of the crew, or even the raw cost of building the ships. It is investment in entire industries which a Verge nation otherwise does not need. It is infrastructure, both groundside and in space, for logistics, command, maintenance. Why should a Verge nation do all that if they don't need it? As I said before, they generally don't need it.

SWM wrote:
Second, you are grossly underestimating what it would take to be able to support a navy with superdreadnoughts. It is not just the pay of the crew, or even the raw cost of building the ships. It is investment in entire industries which a Verge nation otherwise does not need. It is infrastructure, both groundside and in space, for logistics, command, maintenance. Why should a Verge nation do all that if they don't need it? As I said before, they generally don't need it.

You are getting complete systems with a supply of spare parts. You don't need to build anything. You can also buy parts, since the tech is most over 100 years old. You don't need the ability to run expeditions 200 ly, you need the ability to operate inside the hyperlimit.

Grayson managed to acquire a few old point defense autocannons that else would have gone to scrap.
How much more expensive do you figure an entire SD with spares is?
We're biased because we mostly see Manticore, which is not only the richest single star entity, but also the largest shipbuilding center. Building a new SD is much cheaper for the RMN than buying a single Solly SD.
Of course, with the war starting, the SL is not going to sell much.