Revisiting a Gryphon refit.

Who are you typing/replying to?

Lord Skimper wrote:The other reason to do this is to bring three to six refit slips into each Silesian system. Teach them about MDM missiles and some of the internal ship systems. Plus should any of this information leak it is a big disinformation campaign for leaked info to the League.

It brings all the Silesian systems into the training of the new systems and it creates a defensive System Guard. Bring building and refit slips into each Silesian system and confuses the heck out of the league.

League gets to know that 3 drive capacitor missiles with a 30 million km drive range. Which matches what the BC group reports. Everyone else who has reported anything doesn't contradict this info. Suggest that systems are protected by similar or Mk41 A missiles in pods. Which can also be deployed. And provides data that LAC are helping with telemetry links. Old school LAC. But that each system is fairly well protected.

Adding the captured Cataphracts in pods give each system 6000 10 cataphract DDM pods. Put another 1000 9 Mk41 A pods. In each system and 100+ Shrike and Ferret LAC plus Highlander 2B (keyhole Mk5) LAC (2 per SD). Real information and yet disinformation. Freeing up all the new fusion missiles and systems for front line duty with the league being misinformed about all of them.

After the SD refits, you start with the older BC's refit with LERM and the CA CLand some of the newest DD. Could even refit the newest of the BC, CL and DD SLN captured systems for use by local Captured or Freed League / Verge / Shell worlds. Should be 50+ of each. Using LERM they can be made into effective picket ships. Add a System Guard to each captured freed system.

Skimper, MDMs already have the benefits of extended range nodes. BuWeaps used everything they had learned from recent MDM development to make the LERMs.

And Skimper, you STILL have not answered why they should precious yard space to refit outdated ships when they could use that same space to build SD(P)s. Yes, they need every ship they can get, but why should they settle for a refitted Gryphon when they can get an Invictus for just a little more time and effort? Any new superdreadnought-sized yards they build should be building SD(P)s.

Sigh. I don't know why I bother trying anymore. I give up trying to enlighten some of you people.

Duckk wrote:Sigh. I don't know why I bother trying anymore. I give up trying to enlighten some of you people.

It boggles my mind that Skimper keeps on insisting that the thing to do to address the need for additional capital ships is to a) build dozens of service slips in Silesia, b) train Silesian crews on how to work on SDs, c) set them to work rebuilding old, obsolete SDs into something slightly less obsolete, not something as comparatively simple as, I dunno, sending a couple of tech people off to the biggest damn starship yard in existance to upgrade its output.

I mean, even if we take the viewpoint that pumping money into Silesia is a good thing (It is!), I would wager that none of the ex-Confederacy systems are actually capable of handling SD-grade shipyards, simply due to a lack of secondary and tertiary industry in system, and a lack of trained personnel. Building up the capability to service an SD service station will, in most cases I guess, take years if not decades, and that's simply not an acceptable timeframe.

SWM wrote:Skimper, MDMs already have the benefits of extended range nodes. BuWeaps used everything they had learned from recent MDM development to make the LERMs.

Exactly!

(Oh and I don't have my books handy, but wasn't the 30 million km range Skimper was claiming a MDM could get after being upgraded with his "LERM nodes" actually about the range of the current dual drive Mk16? )

Jonathan_S wrote:

SWM wrote:Skimper, MDMs already have the benefits of extended range nodes. BuWeaps used everything they had learned from recent MDM development to make the LERMs.

Exactly!

(Oh and I don't have my books handy, but wasn't the 30 million km range Skimper was claiming a MDM could get after being upgraded with his "LERM nodes" actually about the range of the current dual drive Mk16? )

Missiles with at least two drives don't have a maximum range because they can incorporate a ballistic phase and still have the second(or third, or fourth) drive for the attack phase. Right?

Ever since the first MDM was deployed, the problem has been controlling those missiles. Apollo was a massive step up, but still has bandwidth issues preventing large numbers being controlled well at 150+ million km(hence Honor's bluff).

I suspect what's being referred to here is the maximum range of the maximum power setting(ie, all drives running flat-out). Which, IIRC, is ~30 million for MK16s and ~65 for the MDMs used during Buttercup.

A LERM couldn't incorporate a ballistic phase, since it only has one drive, limiting its range to something around 10-12 million km(judging by the Hellbarde vs Jessica Epps engagement).

munroburton wrote:Missiles with at least two drives don't have a maximum range because they can incorporate a ballistic phase and still have the second(or third, or fourth) drive for the attack phase. Right?

Ever since the first MDM was deployed, the problem has been controlling those missiles. Apollo was a massive step up, but still has bandwidth issues preventing large numbers being controlled well at 150+ million km(hence Honor's bluff).

I suspect what's being referred to here is the maximum range of the maximum power setting(ie, all drives running flat-out). Which, IIRC, is ~30 million for MK16s and ~65 for the MDMs used during Buttercup.

A LERM couldn't incorporate a ballistic phase, since it only has one drive, limiting its range to something around 10-12 million km(judging by the Hellbarde vs Jessica Epps engagement).

oops ; yes I meant (but didn't specify) continuously powered range.

And for some reason I think the Jessica Epps Mk14 ERMs were good for 15 million km, somewhat longer that the apparent range of Hellbarde's missiles.

Why do you want to refit a Gryphon in the sense of upgrading everything on it to meet the new formats for MDM combat? There is a probable line of logic for taking some of them out of mothballs to be used in certain limited capacities but not for being part of the major fleets as the fleets are now configured.

In WW II, a lot of ships which no longer met the criteria of first line ships were used with relatively low levels of retrofit. The two are not truly comparable but look at the use of most of the Battleships at the start of the war vs. what they were eventually used for. The Nevada was grounded to prevent sinking at Pearl and ends up being a floating artillery platform at Normandy. I don’t believe they “upgraded” the main guns or even that much of the secondary guns though the AA was improved and things added like better fire control but along with shore bombardment in the Atlantic, Med and Pacific, she was used for convoy protection. There were good reasons to use these ships in other than their initially intended roles.

If Manticore thought they had a need for capital ships in a place like Silesia it would be “possible” to bring one or more Gryphon back into service and use it like the Hercules at Spindle. It is an SD. It already is RMN equipment though a bunch of the software would need to be upgraded. There may be enough older personnel available to form the core of a crew experienced in Gryphon’s and use the ship(s) as platforms to bring local forces up to speed in relatively current SEM gear and procedures- that does, however, mean you are still going to need a LOT of training time.
There is very little in the way of ships (other than the Aldermani Navy) in that area that could stand against even a single Gryphon. There are probably a lot of existing missiles of the types the Gryphon’s tubes use in existing stocks of older weapons. There are going to be a lot of spare parts still available. It is hyper-capable and could be moved as needed. This really only works if you don't need to much more than upgrade software, recrew and restock with comsumables such as ammunition.

Against other than MDM capital ships it would be a tough customer against a SLN raiding force. Would a SLN “commerce raiding force” want to take on an SD? Can you imagine a FF force commander with a couple of BCs & CAs and a bunch of DD sitting out in the dark and being told in a scout's report that there is a frigging Manti SD at Hillman and another at Hera?

And, yes, you probably want a few squadrons of modern LACs in the same system. While an attacker is focused (you hope) on the SD, the LACs can tear them apart.

Jonathan_S wrote:oops ; yes I meant (but didn't specify) continuously powered range.

And for some reason I think the Jessica Epps Mk14 ERMs were good for 15 million km, somewhat longer that the apparent range of Hellbarde's missiles.

Probably. In which case, they probably do use the same sort of drive technology as a MK16 already - a single-drive version, with a lighter payload.