Excusez-moi

tlb wrote:It is not that you run too fast, but that you run off on tangents.

I do run off on tangents. I do. That is because most posters and their canned notions supply the tangents to chase. Most of the time I'm like… WOE! What? Most of the time I do not know which tangent to chase. There are so many. There is no imagination. I'm always left out on a limb because, again, most poster’s notions are canned responses. And rarely, rarely do notions include how humanity or human nature reacts in the real world.

I have been honest with the forum by admitting that what you see as a problem with my posts began long ago in grade school. Where two of my English teachers from two different schools and grade levels praised my ability to become the character. And believe me, many of my classmates were just as taken aback as yourselves. But class discussions were so interesting that the entire class was meeting after school and on weekends!

It is funny how I argue notions and dissenters who argue against me end up arguing in my favor before the thread ends. Because their notions support that which they argue against.

I also find it rather interesting that my notions are oftentimes supported and fleshed out in the real world in weeks or months or years after the fact.

Case in point. I remember arguing vehemently with certain posters years ago about the harm caused by illegal aliens. My notions and their veracity are currently on display in the arrests that are being made in the news. And the atrocious accusations being made against these illegal aliens. Are all of them bad. Probably not. But a lot of them are. And if they are here illegally, they are committing a crime. As I said then, argue with the people whose neighborhoods are being overrun and destroyed.

tlb wrote: Sometimes you write about what you think and at other times you write about what you believe characters in the book would think, without indicating a clear distinction between the two.

I should hope so. As there are discussions which call for both. Book discussions always consist of both. And the line between the two is so blurred. Book discussions always consist of personal observations, right or wrong. Sometimes these personal observations are neither right or wrong, but just are.

A lot of my notions seem to be too cerebral. And as I've said many times before. It perplexes me.

The author's world is wrapped inside of Sci-Fi. But what most people fail to understand is that the author's world is not an alien world. It is a slice of humanity set on a stage in the future. But it is a human world. And simply because a world is set far into the future, even though that world is advanced, even though the world is governed by advanced technology, human nature is basically the same at the end of the day.

Sure, centuries can change even humanity’s base notions. But never humanity's core notions. Morals, scruples and values do not change. It is what makes humanity human. It is what makes the Queen of Manticore who she is. Honor Harrington who she is. It is what makes the cream of the crop of Havenites rise up and rage against the corrupt and morally bankrupt Oscar St. Just and his regime. So, yeah, I chase canned notions that lack a sense of reality and how things function in the real world instead of limited to how things work on paper.

You should be thanking me for that. My English teachers and classmates did.

tlb wrote: Sometimes you write about what you think and at other times you write about what you believe characters in the book would think, without indicating a clear distinction between the two.

penny wrote:I should hope so. As there are discussions which call for both. Book discussions always consist of both. And the line between the two is so blurred. Book discussions always consist of personal observations, right or wrong. Sometimes these personal observations are neither right or wrong, but just are.

The problem is that we might agree with you if you explain that you are just saying what you believe a character in the book would say. But if we believe that it is you that really believes personally in what you say, then we must dissent. And then you might lead us into an argument with a construct, rather than a real person. That is both futile and infuriating.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote: Sometimes you write about what you think and at other times you write about what you believe characters in the book would think, without indicating a clear distinction between the two.

penny wrote:I should hope so. As there are discussions which call for both. Book discussions always consist of both. And the line between the two is so blurred. Book discussions always consist of personal observations, right or wrong. Sometimes these personal observations are neither right or wrong, but just are.

The problem is that we might agree with you if you explain that you are just saying what you believe a character in the book would say. But if we believe that it is you that really believes personally in what you say, then we must dissent. And then you might lead us into an argument with a construct, rather than a real person. That is both futile and infuriating.

???

Why is that a problem? The truth finally comes out. I can't believe you posted that. Your true colors, eh?


Why should it matter whether I make that distinction? The only thing that should matter is whether I am correct or not. So you disagree with me simply because the truth originated in my own mind instead of what I think the characters would say? Isn't that the meaning of disagreeing with me for the sake of? Truth is truth, and it shouldn't matter where that truth comes from.

Have you considered that I do not make that distinction because my thoughts coincide with what I think the characters in the book would say, because my thinking is exactly on par with how I think the characters would feel – or felt - because I do not have a problem putting myself into a character's shoes!

Well, if you think that I will change anything simply to gain your approval or agreement. I won't. I seek truth in book discussions. Not agreement.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Is there a possibility that the Wintons are a lost Alpha line as well?

This one is a definitely NO.

The Wintons left Earth in 775 PD, several centuries before Leonard Detweiler was born on Beowulf.

It's possible they have had genetic updates since arriving in the MBS (I would say it's quite likely), by the time the MAlign would have taken any interest in Manticore - probably in Stephanie's time, we'll see more about that in a month and a half - they were already the Royals and too protected for the MAlign to do anything about. None of which would qualify as a MAlign line anyway.

Well "blow me tinders" Olive.

Dunno why I didn't see it before. Jonathan, this is an example of that mass migration, and how a complete line can be lost.

Do we know whether all of the Winton line left Earth that day?

Because of the timeline, Thinksmarkedly has pointed out that the entire Winton line cannot possibly be a lost line. But if the timeline was amenable and the Wintons really are a lost line, do you think they'd be amenable to amending their present path and future to suit some shadow entity after centuries of their own success?

Isn't the MA's belligerent nature akin to the older generation who still carry the seeds of racism and prejudice in their bones? Of those who still carry notions of a superior race? As time ages, so do those notions. Time dilutes those notions.

People argue with me that if Honor was cloned, the clone might not necessarily turn out to be like Honor. True. Some say it is because of the lack of Nimitz' influence. Possibly. But the statement's veracity is not dependent upon Nimitz. A set of twins raised in the same household, sleeping in the same room/bed until they graduate HS turn out completely different.

So how can centuries between indoctrination and births expect compliance to a shadow organization that 99+ % of the later generations know absolutely nothing about?

Riddle me this. How would you feel if someone approached you at this juncture in your life and informed you that you are part of a shadow organization belonging to Hitler? And you are expected to conform?

Would you? No?

What??? You wouldn't? And there hasn't even been one century since Hitler. Let alone many.

.

penny wrote:
Well "blow me tinders" Olive.

Dunno why I didn't see it before. Jonathan, this is an example of that mass migration, and how a complete line can be lost.

Do we know whether all of the Winton line left Earth that day?

Because of the timeline, Thinksmarkedly has pointed out that the entire Winton line cannot possibly be a lost line. But if the timeline was amenable and the Wintons really are a lost line, do you think they'd be amenable to amending their present path and future to suit some shadow entity after centuries of their own success?

Isn't the MA's belligerent nature akin to the older generation who still carry the seeds of racism and prejudice in their bones? Of those who still carry notions of a superior race? As time ages, so do those notions. Time dilutes those notions.

People argue with me that if Honor was cloned, the clone might not necessarily turn out to be like Honor. True. Some say it is because of the lack of Nimitz' influence. Possibly. But the statement's veracity is not dependent upon Nimitz. A set of twins raised in the same household, sleeping in the same room/bed until they graduate HS turn out completely different.

So how can centuries between indoctrination and births expect compliance to a shadow organization that 99+ % of the later generations know absolutely nothing about?

Riddle me this. How would you feel if someone approached you at this juncture in your life and informed you that you are part of a shadow organization belonging to Hitler? And you are expected to conform?

Would you? No?

What??? You wouldn't? And there hasn't even been one century since Hitler. Let alone many.

.

that's certainly not how I had understood the MAlign to work.

I don't think they'd try to reach out to a lost line should it later be identified. As you say, that's a very high risk endeavor and seemingly one with a very low probability of success. So I don't think they would try to reach out if there had been centuries since any member of that lost line had been indoctrinated.

Heck, they'll have Alpha parents avoid attempting to induct their own children if their feel the kids weren't sufficiently indoctrinated. And those are people they know well and had their whole childhood to try to groom to have the worldview tht would be rabidly supporting of the MAlign and its goals.

Now if an Alpha parent was skipped over it's possible that their parents or siblings who were inducted might have a close enough relationship with that "lost" parent to attempt to mold the kids to be candidates for induction. But I've said before that's got to have a lower probability of success -- if for no other reason than because extended family is going to have less time and access to try to mold the kids than their parents do.

But once you don't have that close extended family I think the MAlign would cut their losses and abandon the line (even if they kept tabs on it) as far as involvement in the Onion goes. Better to protect the conspiracy than be overly worried about trying to keep control of everybody with Alpha line genetics.


But if some alternate Honorverse where the MAlign existed on Earth before the original Manticore expedition, and the Wintons were originally an Alpha line and in on the early Onion, then no -- I'd say based on the beliefs and behavior of the current Wintons there's no way in hell that they'd agree with the MAlign's tactics and ultimate secret goals. No way they could be successfully 'recovered' into the Onion at this late date. (And any Onion member who tried would be certifiable for taking that security risk)
Though I guess in this alternate Honorverse if the founding members of the Winton dynasty were in the Onion the family might have turned out different due to attempts of each generation to influence the next to be receptive to being brought into the Onion. But I don't know if any of the Alpha lines off of Mesa lasted anywhere near the 500 years the Wintons have been running Manticore; so the odds of keeping the ruling branch of the family from being lost to the Onion over that vast stretch of time seem low. But that would all be a very different set of books -- so who can actually say.

penny wrote:Why is that a problem? The truth finally comes out. I can't believe you posted that. Your true colors, eh?


Why should it matter whether I make that distinction? The only thing that should matter is whether I am correct or not. So you disagree with me simply because the truth originated in my own mind instead of what I think the characters would say? Isn't that the meaning of disagreeing with me for the sake of? Truth is truth, and it shouldn't matter where that truth comes from.

Have you considered that I do not make that distinction because my thoughts coincide with what I think the characters in the book would say, because my thinking is exactly on par with how I think the characters would feel – or felt - because I do not have a problem putting myself into a character's shoes!

Well, if you think that I will change anything simply to gain your approval or agreement. I won't. I seek truth in book discussions. Not agreement.

I would never expect you to change in an attempt to gain my approval or agreement. Just as I see no reason to seek your approval or agreement.

But as to seeking TRUTH: there is only the author's text and all else is personal perception and inclination. Someone's exposition of the author's work, which sticks closer to the text, has more claim to the "truth" than someone else's who strays away; at least until the author releases additional narration.

PS: "The truth finally comes out. I can't believe you posted that. Your true colors, eh?", what nonsense is this? All I said was that I do not mind arguing with you personally, but do not like arguing with a strawman set up just to provoke a response.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Why is that a problem? The truth finally comes out. I can't believe you posted that. Your true colors, eh?


Why should it matter whether I make that distinction? The only thing that should matter is whether I am correct or not. So you disagree with me simply because the truth originated in my own mind instead of what I think the characters would say? Isn't that the meaning of disagreeing with me for the sake of? Truth is truth, and it shouldn't matter where that truth comes from.

Have you considered that I do not make that distinction because my thoughts coincide with what I think the characters in the book would say, because my thinking is exactly on par with how I think the characters would feel – or felt - because I do not have a problem putting myself into a character's shoes!

Well, if you think that I will change anything simply to gain your approval or agreement. I won't. I seek truth in book discussions. Not agreement.

I would never expect you to change in an attempt to gain my approval or agreement. Just as I see no reason to seek your approval or agreement.

But as to seeking TRUTH: there is only the author's text and all else is personal perception and inclination. Someone's exposition of the author's work, which sticks closer to the text, has more claim to the "truth" than someone else's who strays away; at least until the author releases additional narration.

PS: "The truth finally comes out. I can't believe you posted that. Your true colors, eh?", what nonsense is this? All I said was that I do not mind arguing with you personally, but do not like arguing with a strawman set up just to provoke a response.

I see that I am going to have to place you on the back burner. In quarantine. You continue to disrespect me.

You, and others like you, choose to believe without latitude that my notions are made of straw and made simply to provoke a response.

Why? Why? Why? What can't my notions be a reflection of how I truly feel? Why can't my views be a product of my father's teachings like I unswervingly claim, who has taught me to think outside of the box where life is? Why must I always be accused of the worst, like in the beginning of joining the forum when I was constantly being accused of trolling. Of creating my own fan fic. I didn't really know what trolling was. I knew what a troll was in its archaic form and I did not like the comparison. Can't you see that your actions and your words imply that you have a serious problem with me that goes far beyond the norm?

I always remain true to myself. My notions. My thoughts. The way I digest life is different than your own. Different form most people. Is that a crime if it is genuine? I constantly tell you that it is genuine but apparently you think not.

I grow weary of this forum and silly childish actions.

Excusez-moi for attempting to enjoy discussing the HV while remaining true to myself. A trueness that began long ago in grade school.

penny wrote:I see that I am going to have to place you on the back burner. In quarantine. You continue to disrespect me.

You, and others like you, choose to believe without latitude that my notions are made of straw and made simply to provoke a response.

To be clear, I never said that all your notions were made of straw. Only those where you are constructing the thoughts of a character, without indicating that these are the character's thoughts and do not reflect your personal beliefs. I tried to emphasize that if the distinction was known, then they would be treated differently.

But since you seem to consider both equally valid and that any change would be a surrender, then do what you must.

penny wrote:Dunno why I didn't see it before. Jonathan, this is an example of that mass migration, and how a complete line can be lost.

Do we know whether all of the Winton line left Earth that day?

Very likely no. But did the people left behind have the genetic mods that those who did leave had? Even if they did, this was 2 centuries before the Final War, so there's a question of who was left after the war too.

Because of the timeline, Thinksmarkedly has pointed out that the entire Winton line cannot possibly be a lost line. But if the timeline was amenable and the Wintons really are a lost line, do you think they'd be amenable to amending their present path and future to suit some shadow entity after centuries of their own success?

They are not a lost line.

When would they have been a "found" line? They arrived in the MBS in the 1450s and the wormhole was announced in the 1590s. I don't think the MAlign would have "lost" them after the wormhole, because at that point the SKM became too important, and it was one transit away from Beowulf.

So are you suggesting that during the Plague Years, some MAlign agents did manage to coopt Queen Elizabeth I Winton, but failed to follow up with King Michael I? Or that the MAlign agents came during the immigrations following the Plague Years, but lost interest right as the treecats were discovered? The very species that they were trying to get samples from.

No, there's no point in time where the Wintons could have been a line.

People argue with me that if Honor was cloned, the clone might not necessarily turn out to be like Honor. True. Some say it is because of the lack of Nimitz' influence. Possibly. But the statement's veracity is not dependent upon Nimitz. A set of twins raised in the same household, sleeping in the same room/bed until they graduate HS turn out completely different.

That's even more reason to say that cloning Honor will not produce Honor 2.0.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Dunno why I didn't see it before. Jonathan, this is an example of that mass migration, and how a complete line can be lost.

Do we know whether all of the Winton line left Earth that day?

Very likely no. But did the people left behind have the genetic mods that those who did leave had? Even if they did, this was 2 centuries before the Final War, so there's a question of who was left after the war too.

Because of the timeline, Thinksmarkedly has pointed out that the entire Winton line cannot possibly be a lost line. But if the timeline was amenable and the Wintons really are a lost line, do you think they'd be amenable to amending their present path and future to suit some shadow entity after centuries of their own success?

They are not a lost line.

When would they have been a "found" line? They arrived in the MBS in the 1450s and the wormhole was announced in the 1590s. I don't think the MAlign would have "lost" them after the wormhole, because at that point the SKM became too important, and it was one transit away from Beowulf.

So are you suggesting that during the Plague Years, some MAlign agents did manage to coopt Queen Elizabeth I Winton, but failed to follow up with King Michael I? Or that the MAlign agents came during the immigrations following the Plague Years, but lost interest right as the treecats were discovered? The very species that they were trying to get samples from.

No, there's no point in time where the Wintons could have been a line.

People argue with me that if Honor was cloned, the clone might not necessarily turn out to be like Honor. True. Some say it is because of the lack of Nimitz' influence. Possibly. But the statement's veracity is not dependent upon Nimitz. A set of twins raised in the same household, sleeping in the same room/bed until they graduate HS turn out completely different.

That's even more reason to say that cloning Honor will not produce Honor 2.0.

Interesting post.

As far as I am concerned, you proved the Wintons cannot be a lost line because of the timeline. But it does raise questions for my inquisitive mind.

If there were Wintons left behind then there is an obscure member of the Winton clan that can assume the throne in case of the worse disaster imaginable, like in the 'Eridani Edict of the most dismissive kind’ thread.

In regards to whether any Wintons who were left behind got the gene mod, on the flip side how many who relocated to the MBS had the mod? Weren’t the early gene mods dependent upon age? Or does the age limit only apply to prolong?

Anyway, in another post I was also allowing for a single member of the Winton line beIng a member of a lost line. Someone else suggested the same thing with the possibility by marriage. But if we consider both avenues of “infection” then we would have to ask how Honor (and Honor alone) became a member of a lost line; or whether there are yet other members of the Harrington clan who are also lost.

If Honor is a member of a lost line, how could that have happened? Would an MA agent somehow have gotten access to Honor? Possible I suppose. But not necessarily. I would assume that what would at least loosely qualify someone for being a member of a lost line is simply someone who has received a qualifying gene mod. In Honor’s case, Meyerdahl-B. IOW, the MA is taking credit for having developed that mod. And if it is as simple as that, then anyone who receives a gene mod developed by the MA qualifies for being a member of a lost line. As the MA would surely want to study the recipient thus the success of the mod. A lab rat as it were. One for study but not for inclusion at some later date.

And we must consider the possibility that any Wintons who were left behind on Earth could have later migrated to the MBS after receiving an MA certified mod.

It is my suggestion that as far as the MA’s purposes, a particular line could begin with the recipient of an MA certified mod. Why must a recipient necessarily have to originate in a Malign lab on a Malign assembly line. A “bastard line” if you will, can begin at the point of anyone receiving the mod. And in that case, a “lost” line could simply apply to someone who has received one of the MA’s own mods. And lost in the sense that there was no possibility or plan for inclusion into the Alignment even from the outset of receiving the mod. However, in the overarching scheme of dominating humanity and beefing up their resume and propaganda, a bastard line which begins with someone even outside of the Alignment who has received one of their mods would still qualify the MA to accept credit for the successful mod at the end of the day.


P.S. Cloning Honor will not necessarily produce Honor 2.0. But OTOH it might produce Honor 3.0. A version even better than the original and totally bereft of any control over her unstable reactor nor any worry over it. IOW, an Honor without a conscience but with all of the abilities as the original. An Honor that can kill just as efficiently, and still sleep at night. A perfect edition who is better suited to the MA.