Point of View: Wishes and Likes

Hi Cthia,

TheEmile is quite right.

The extra requirement for "250 SD's with screen" has never happened because it was never needed among other things.

You are missing the whole point or the real problem.

The FF and BF divide is just one symptom of how badly messed up the SL/SLN is.

Simply put; FF has always had far too few, and BF has always had way way too many warships, first and foremost because the BF is the more prestigious service, whether or not its ever done anything worthy of such esteem.

The BF prefers and insists on being isolated from any real 'work'; that's what menials like FF are for, that's why there's the divide, and never shall the twain meet.

Both are far more bureaucratic institutions now than real military operations as there aren't or weren't any serious threats to the SL until the RMN's R&D and war production rate drastically changed the paradigms of naval combat.

The BF evidently feels SD's simply put directly into the reserve are worth it for the sheer intimidation factor (which spread over several centuries might actually have some merit), while the rest of the bureaucracy appreciates the lower cost of not crewing or operating them, the sheer total numbers always being the most important thing to them and everyone else.

Could FF have doubled or tripled it's current size with say half of BF's construction budget over even just the last 50-100 years?

Quite probably.

FF would then be far better prepared to handle the coming storm while BF was still incompetently bleating about how much bigger its wall of battle was than anyone else's.

But it wouldn't and couldn't happen under the real world conditions the SL/N operates under, especially given the Mesan Alignment.

Is it stupid?

Obviously.

What part of the now doomed NTM corrupt SL/SLN don't you still understand?

The intimidation factor is why the SLN doesn't need nodal fleets or any such nonsense; nobody was ever seriously going to threaten the SL in the first place.

Yes, the SLN is the one that attacks ["pacifies" and uplifts the local savages] whatever it wants, but it does it with whatever FF TG/TF it needs to dispatch from the SL core or various sectors; without bothering the BF, which doesn't want to get its fingers dirty, because even one FF warship is often quite enough as the rarity of BF squadrons dispatched beyond the SL's member boundaries the last century demonstrated before New Tuscany etc.

Which is why we have no textev for any SLN primary "Pit", there may be Sector "pit's", but we have no textev for them either.

The SLN doesn't need one: because 'everyone knows' no one will ever attack the SL, thus its unlikely the other bureaucracies would permit the budget item, and quite probably pointing at it loudly to show they're preventing 'pork'.

It can't use one because of the time delay factor involved, and since the other major bureaucrats don't bother to even read [or view the synopses of] the SLN's reports {or each other's apparently) so having the essential narrow capability in their own offices is probably what the SLN went with.

So trying to deal with the GA's Case Lacoon will be on a local piecemeal basis since 6 month+ response times are so grossly inadequate.

Given the BF is concentrated within the 'old league', ie within ~98 LY of Sol, and now proven demonstrably obsolete; the need for 'the pit' has become rather moot since the SL is on the verge of breaking up, mainly because it is such a dinosaur.

L

[quote="cthia"][quote="Theemile"]*quote="cthia"*

<snip>

Numbers! That's the only difference. Each system would have had a mobile force and a nodal force. It isn't a strategy made for the RMN or Grayson, or even the RHN. They didn't have the necessary ships for it. But the League did. And that strategy is tailor made for them. Then so many ships wouldn't have been mothballed.*quote*

It's been stated many times that the SLN never has enough ships to put out all the fires. There are ~2300 systems in the SL (~1800 members and at least 500 protectorates). That's 1 active waller and around a squadron or so of lighter ships at each planet if spread "evenly" around. There's really no room for a sizeable mobile force AND nodal forces.[/quote]
Every time I come across this point, I ask myself why they had so many ships in the garage? Since they obviously could have used them. Surely there wasn't a shortage of warm bodies with so many systems.

[quote]If you notice, all the FF ships we've seen are detailed to either OFS regions, or are a district, nodal force.[/quote]
Therein lies the problem of the League. The SLN wasted combat power. There should not have been a separate OFS and Battle Fleet because they didn't work together; they detested each other, in fact. They spent more time fighting each other than enemies. Having two separate entities watered down available combat power.

It reminds me of our CIA and FBI. Overlapping areas of concern and gray areas that undermines effectiveness. IMO.[/quote]

Hi Weird Harold,

I thought I'd already sent this, but here goes.

You're on quite a roll here.

The fact that everyone knows the SLN has 2000 SD's in commission [300+ refitting or being upgraded etc], and 8400+ in reserve is all they need to know to never want to tick the SL off.

The fact that 2/3 of the reserve still use auto-cannon instead of Laser PDC's is rather beside the point when dealing with those kind of numbers.

Real operations cost a lot more over time than at the commissioning, so sending a third of the new annual SD's immediately into the reserve actually saves quite a lot.

This is another of those cases where perception was more important than reality.

So it will be fascinating to see what happens when the SL public finally realizes the whole of BF NTM the SLN etc, is good for nothing but scrap compared to the GA, and who among the bureaucrats who are responsible for the whole debacle, is late getting out of Dodge.

Fascinating times,

L


[quote="Weird Harold"][quote="cthia"][quote="Theemile"]
It's been stated many times that the SLN never has enough ships to put out all the fires. ...[/quote]

Every time I come across this point, I ask myself why they had so many ships in the garage? Since they obviously could have used them. Surely there wasn't a shortage of warm bodies with so many systems.[/quote]

Follow the money, Son.

The SLN -- the whole League bureaucracy, for that matter -- relys on fees and tribute from protectorates; there simply isn't enough money to activate the reserve or build new ships. The League can't simply raise taxes to man more ships, and Operation Lacoon is cutting into the League's income to the point they won't be able to pay the ships they do have in service (although Manticore destroying and capturing so many helps a bit. )[/quote]

Hi Brigade XO,

Excellent points as usual.

From RFC's comments at the Bar archived at the fifth imperium, there are SL member who threaten their neighbors and vice-versa, that require some SLN policing and patrolling, apparently including BF squadrons or fleets since some of these trouble makers have serious SD fleets of their own.

Obviously these fleets are unavailable for other duties since chaos would result from their absence.

How many such problem children exist is unknown, from the textev implication it seems more than a few.

It apparently took a while to assemble Tsang's fleet given this is the SL core, so there wasn't that much that could be spared or split off from Sol quickly, which says something about SLN/BF flexibility, but that's another thread.

I'm curious what people think might be the number of standing SL fleets and their size [15-17?], including Sol's Home Fleet and the other grossly populated members that should expect some kind of active BF presence, NTM local wormhole termini.

Looking forward to more excellent comments.

L

Brigade XO wrote:We have seen conversations, internal thoughts of characters and general information that would support the theory that FF was parceled out through the sector governors in a more or less nodal arrangement with the ability to either be dispatched or react on the local commanding officer's inititiave should they be needed.
It would seem that BF mostly had squadrons of SDs (with screen) assigned places though they probably were also dispatched to move around for various reaons including showing raw power.

All of this sounds very much like the 18th and 19th century British Navy. The RMN carries the image of the RN much better, as RMN was heavily invested in commerce protection with units dispatched to areas of responsibility and expected to use the Commander's best judgement in carrying out both mission orders and addressing issues as they came up.

SLN has (as implied in the story line) much more in the way of politics, particularly in BF, than doing anything actually protective. It's FF that is spread really thin with DD's though BC's scattered around as individuals and small units pissing on fires while BF swans around in massive blocks reeking of intimidation and force.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Brigade XO,

Excellent points as usual.

From RFC's comments at the Bar archived at the fifth imperium, there are SL member who threaten their neighbors and vice-versa, that require some SLN policing and patrolling, apparently including BF squadrons or fleets since some of these trouble makers have serious SD fleets of their own.

Obviously these fleets are unavailable for other duties since chaos would result from their absence.

How many such problem children exist is unknown, from the textev implication it seems more than a few.

It apparently took a while to assemble Tsang's fleet given this is the SL core, so there wasn't that much that could be spared or split off from Sol quickly, which says something about SLN/BF flexibility, but that's another thread.

I'm curious what people think might be the number of standing SL fleets and their size [15-17?], including Sol's Home Fleet and the other grossly populated members that should expect some kind of active BF presence, NTM local wormhole termini.

Looking forward to more excellent comments.

L

I take quite a low-ball view of that possibility. Filareta's fleet was number 11, implying the SLN only had ten up to that point - possibly including logistical or administrative commands(like the RMN's Fifth Fleet).

There are only half a dozen reserve depots besides Hyperion One. I think there may be as few as seven major fleet bases for Battle Fleet capable of supporting SD-level operations. Frontier Fleet probably has dozens or scores of small bases.

I would also note that this doesn't prevent the SLN from operating many more formations such as independent task forces. Crandall's was numbered 496 and she did not report directly to a fleet commander any more than Admiral Harrington of Task Force 34 reported to Third Fleet's CO.

Hi Munro Burton,

Kudos for the excellent points!

I'm always glad to get your input, thanks for the reminders.

L

munroburton wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Brigade XO,

Excellent points as usual.

From RFC's comments at the Bar archived at the fifth imperium, there are SL member who threaten their neighbors and vice-versa, that require some SLN policing and patrolling, apparently including BF squadrons or fleets since some of these trouble makers have serious SD fleets of their own.

Obviously these fleets are unavailable for other duties since chaos would result from their absence.

How many such problem children exist is unknown, from the textev implication it seems more than a few.

It apparently took a while to assemble Tsang's fleet given this is the SL core, so there wasn't that much that could be spared or split off from Sol quickly, which says something about SLN/BF flexibility, but that's another thread.

I'm curious what people think might be the number of standing SL fleets and their size [15-17?], including Sol's Home Fleet and the other grossly populated members that should expect some kind of active BF presence, NTM local wormhole termini.

Looking forward to more excellent comments.

L

I take quite a low-ball view of that possibility. Filareta's fleet was number 11, implying the SLN only had ten up to that point - possibly including logistical or administrative commands(like the RMN's Fifth Fleet).

There are only half a dozen reserve depots besides Hyperion One. I think there may be as few as seven major fleet bases for Battle Fleet capable of supporting SD-level operations. Frontier Fleet probably has dozens or scores of small bases.

I would also note that this doesn't prevent the SLN from operating many more formations such as independent task forces. Crandall's was numbered 496 and she did not report directly to a fleet commander any more than Admiral Harrington of Task Force 34 reported to Third Fleet's CO.

We had a descripton of the Fleet 2000 program (or similar name) in which both active and reserve BF ships were upgraded. Part of that was to make sure (and as a "cost cutting measure" because it didn't mean building whole new ships) that a greater number of the reserve fleet ships -primarily SDs' were current with weapons and systems in terms of using the same stuff as and being able to operate with the active duty BF. They might have had fewer of those weapons per ship but things like they type of weapon and countermeasures would be compatible and the same as the present active deployed ships. Then there was the whole graft and pork and taking care of friends/supporters part of the deal. Classic SL buracracy and making something for retirement.

One of the things that was lost sight of was they didn't really need all that metal floating around either as not-yet-scrapped or as we can double our fleet if only we can call up enough reserves fast enough thinking. Remember, the reserves are not really that usefull unless you can put trained crews on them and actually fight them.

How many places in the League or out in the Verge could have stood up to 25 or 50 SD (or, as someone noted a Solly SD is more like a Manticore or Haven DN but wimpy).
So to deal with the actual problems or tasks that the FLEET had to deal with most of the time, it was FF and often single ships.
So .....the SL should have been building a whole lot of DD through BC squadrons instead of maintaining or upgrading decommissoned "SDs" and probably not building quite so many SDs to provide actual usable combat and intimitdation power. Heck you could even send ONE SD along with a CA squadron and a DD squadron and do a much better job of hammering 90% of the systems the SL even knows about in human space and do it better.
Presently Beowulf has what, 36 SDs. Erwhon the SLN might not really have a good handle on but then they have ignored what was going on out by Manticore and Haven so even if they know the NUMBERS of SDs Erwhon has, they are just learing the true capasity of what Erwhon's fleet can do IF they recall that these are even "Manti Lite" ships.

SLN really can't deploy the SDs in the FF mission roles and never seem to have had the numbers to do the FF job. Intimidation only goes so far.

Its a real bummer when your sledgehammer is turning out to be a man in a long shirt (and no mail) using a pointed stick and faced with a guy with sword backed by a woodchipper and a company of archers.

I would imagine that Darius is a society like no other. Since it is way out in the lawless boonies, we can't imagine what they have accepted. I'd like more POV of Darius. We all have considered the MA's genetic tampering with humanity, but what if they also have tampered with other species to create obedient military weapons?

****** *


The MAlign special forces officer smiled as he lay in the dirt watching his prey. It was created by MAlign science, a creature like none other. It is called a "metamorphosis" - the most recent attempt of the MAs to further poke a finger in the eye of Beowulfan science. It is bred to have the affection and loyalty of a lovable breed of Old Earth dog yet with the obedience of a well trained canine. But there the similarity ends. This is a killing machine, where one of them would have several hexapumas at a serious disadvantage. It kills swiftly and surely. Fearsome. Intelligent and very protective. The MAlign's answer to the treecat.

Once upon a time, the MA used to experiment on animals. And some of the genetic engineered creatures are very dangerous, like the "metamorphoses" who, when it morphs, becomes much more deadly than any sinister creature out of a sci-fi horror flick.

"Just let those damn GA marines come. They all better have armor," the MA soldier thought.

I'd like to "somehow" see the POV of a navy using the fact that a WHJ can be shut down by throwing lots of tonnage through as a tactic.

cthia wrote:I'd like to "somehow" see the POV of a navy using the fact that a WHJ can be shut down by throwing lots of tonnage through as a tactic.

The shutting-down of a wormhole after excessive tonnage has transited favours the defenders. After all, no more attackers can come through for a while.

And since the attacker was on the other side of that particular bridge, the defenders wouldn't be using it anyway. It's effectively closed anyway.

This quirk only affects the bridge used - meaning a max-mass transit from Trevor's Star to Manticore(or vice versa) would only lock down that bridge. Traffic to and from Basilisk, Beowulf, Gregor, Lynx, etc.. would be completely unaffected.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:I'd like to "somehow" see the POV of a navy using the fact that a WHJ can be shut down by throwing lots of tonnage through as a tactic.

The shutting-down of a wormhole after excessive tonnage has transited favours the defenders. After all, no more attackers can come through for a while.

And since the attacker was on the other side of that particular bridge, the defenders wouldn't be using it anyway. It's effectively closed anyway.

This quirk only affects the bridge used - meaning a max-mass transit from Trevor's Star to Manticore(or vice versa) would only lock down that bridge. Traffic to and from Basilisk, Beowulf, Gregor, Lynx, etc.. would be completely unaffected.

I don't care who actually uses the tactic, friend or foe. Or even what scenario might bring about the need of such a tactic. I'd only like to see it used advantageously and ruthlessly.

My quirky brain can imagine that any scenario that might shove the tactic on the table would be very interesting. Not to say a reader's delight in excitement. IMO.