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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:02 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
Just because it hadn't been discovered doesn't mean it didn't exist. :roll:


I suppose you could say that the increased difficulty with pirates was partly Haven's doing and led to the deployment of the Trojans even though Manticore was not aware of Haven's role when the decision was made.

There was a problem even without Haven's involvement, however, due to the demands on light units from the front which led to a decrease in the RMN's antipiracy efforts. In fact the Trojans continued their work in Silesia long after Honor exposed and spiked Haven's commerce raiding effort.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:59 pm

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n7axw wrote:There was a problem even without Haven's involvement, however, due to the demands on light units from the front which led to a decrease in the RMN's antipiracy efforts. In fact the Trojans continued their work in Silesia long after Honor exposed and spiked Haven's commerce raiding effort.


True. There was Warnecke's "privateer squadron" and fewer ships patrolling, and Andermani aggressiveness and the general mix of Silesian problems.

But the Havenite commerce raiding is what pushed the situation to the point the conservatives and Honor's enemies conspired to bring her back to command the Trojans. IIRC, part of their reason for concern is the losses were nearly double the statistical average; that implies that the RHN was accounting for as many losses as normal Silesian problems were.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:08 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
n7axw wrote:There was a problem even without Haven's involvement, however, due to the demands on light units from the front which led to a decrease in the RMN's antipiracy efforts. In fact the Trojans continued their work in Silesia long after Honor exposed and spiked Haven's commerce raiding effort.


True. There was Warnecke's "privateer squadron" and fewer ships patrolling, and Andermani aggressiveness and the general mix of Silesian problems.

But the Havenite commerce raiding is what pushed the situation to the point the conservatives and Honor's enemies conspired to bring her back to command the Trojans. IIRC, part of their reason for concern is the losses were nearly double the statistical average; that implies that the RHN was accounting for as many losses as normal Silesian problems were.


"Well? What do you think?"

Honor sat in her briefing room, a month and a half out of New Berlin, while the squadron orbited the planet Sachsen. Sachsen was one of the Confederacy's sector administration centers, which meant a powerful detachment of the Silesian Navy was home-ported here, and the Andermani Empire had acquired a hundred-year lease on the planet's third moon as the HQ of an IAN naval station. As a consequence, the system was a rare island of safety amid the Confederacy's chaos, but Honor's attention wasn't on Sachsen at the moment. Instead, it was on the holo chart glowing above the conference table, and she raised one hand, palm up in question.

"I'm not sure, Milady." Rafael Cardones frowned at the chart. "If the Andies' information is right, this is certainly the major threat zone. But you're talking about branching out into a whole 'nother sector. The Admiralty might not like that . . . and I'm not sure I like splitting the squadron up quite that widely. Captain Truman?"

Honor's golden-haired second in command shrugged. "Split up is split up, Rafe," she pointed out. "We'll be just as much out of mutual support range covering one system as ten, unless you want to hold us together, and we'd look a little odd lollygagging around in a bunch. Some of these pirates have damned sensitive survival instincts—if they see a batch of merchies holding station on one another in a single star system, they may smell a trap and stay clear. But if we split into single ships, we can cover a lot more systems. I like the rotation idea, too. It should not only keep presenting any bad guys with fresh faces, but the changing patrol areas should keep our people from getting stale."

"Maybe so," Cardones agreed. "But if the Andies could twig to us, what's to say someone else hasn't? If the bad guys know we've got Q-ships out here, they're either going to stay away or come in carefully . . . maybe in greater numbers." He looked at Honor. "Remember the sim you set up for me and Jennifer, Skipper?"

Honor nodded and quirked an eyebrow at Truman, who shrugged.

"I can't fault either point, but 'staying away' is what we want them to do. I mean, killing them all off would be a more permanent solution, but our real job is to reduce losses, isn't it? As for numbers, of course we're going to get hurt if someone decides to swarm one of our ships. But why should a whole squadron of raiders go after a Q-ship in the first place? They're not going to get any worthwhile loot, but they will get plenty of hard knocks, even if they take us out. They know that, so why risk it for no return?"

Honor nodded slowly, rubbing Nimitz's ears while the 'cat curled in her lap. Rafe was playing the cautious devil's advocate—a role foreign to his own aggressive nature—because it was his job to shoot holes in his CO's schemes on the theory that it was better for one's exec to shoot up one's plans than for the enemy to shoot up one's ships. And he had a point. If a bunch of bad guys tried to pounce on a single ship, the odds were that that ship would get badly hurt. But Alice had a point, too.

The problem lay in the new data Commander Hauser had provided. Raiding patterns had shifted since ONI put together her own pre-deployment background brief. Ships had been disappearing in ones and twos in Breslau and the neighboring Posnan Sector, and they still were. But where whoever it was had been snapping up single ships and then pulling out, so that the next half-dozen or so got through safely, now as many as three or even four ships in a row were disappearing—all in the same system. Losses were actually higher now in Posnan than in Breslau, which was what had forced Honor to rethink her original deployment plans, but the new pattern of consecutive losses was almost more worrisome than the total numbers. Consecutive losses meant raiders were hanging around to snatch up more targets, and that was wrong. Raiders shouldn't do that . . . or not, at least, if they were operating in the normal singletons.

No raider captain wanted to stooge around with a prize in tow, because two ships together were more likely to be detected and avoided by other potential prizes. Then there was the manpower problem. Very few pirates carried sufficient crew to man more than two or three—at most four—prize ships unless they captured the original ships' companies and made them operate their ships' systems.

On the other hand, she thought unhappily, they might just be managing to hang onto those crews. Normally, something like half the ships hit by pirates were able to get their personnel away before the ship was actually taken, and some incidents were still following that pattern. But some weren't, and the crews of no less than eighty percent of the Manticoran ships lost in Posnan had vanished with their vessels. That was well above the usual numbers, and it suggested two possibilities, neither pleasant. One, someone was simply blowing away merchant ships, which seemed unlikely, or, two, someone had sufficient ships to use one to run down any evading shuttles or pinnaces while another took the prize into custody.

And that, of course, was the reason for Rafe's concern. If the bad guys had multiple ships working single systems, the opposition might be far tougher than the Admiralty had assumed.

"I wish we knew just how the Andies tumbled to us," Truman murmured, and Honor nodded.

"I do, too," she admitted, "but Rabenstrange didn't say, and I can't really blame him. Just telling us they know could jeopardize their intelligence net. We'd be asking a bit much for them to simply tell our own counter-intelligence types how they'd done it."

"Agreed, Milady," Cardones said. He rubbed his nose, then shrugged. "I'd also like to know just why the pattern's shifted this way. According to Commander Hauser's figures, we're the only ones losing merchies in groups."

"That may be simple probability," Truman said. "We've got more ships out here than anyone else, despite our losses. If anyone's going to take multiple hits, the people with the most targets are the ones who'd get hit most often."

"And when you add our draw down in light units," Honor pointed out, "we actually turn into more tempting targets than someone like the Andies, who still have warships available to respond. If I were a raider, I'd pick on the people I knew weren't in a position to drop a squadron of destroyers into my cosy little web."

"I know, but I just can't help feeling there's something more to it," Cardones said.

"Maybe there is, but the only way to find out what it might be is to go see for ourselves." Honor tapped another command into her terminal, and bright green lines sprang into existence in the holo chart. They linked ten star systems—six in Breslau and four in Posnan—in an elongated, complex pattern thirty-two light-years across at its widest point, and she gazed at it moodily.

"If we follow this pattern," she said after a moment, "we'll have one ship—and a different one—entering or departing one of these systems every week or so. If anyone is lying low and watching for us, they won't see the same ship hanging around for extended periods. That should keep us from looking like trolling warships, and it puts us in the center of the zone of heaviest losses and lets us patrol the widest area once we get there."

"Yes, it does," Cardones admitted. "Assuming we don't run into anyone operating in squadron strength, I'd say it's clearly our best approach. But it does move us into Posnan, and it leaves all these stars in Breslau"—he tapped at his own terminal, and nine more stars blinked—"uncovered. We're taking losses there, too, and Breslau is where we're tasked for operations."

"I know," Honor sighed. "But if we extend the pattern, we also extend times between stars. We spend more time in hyper and less in n-space where we're most likely to actually find and kill pirates. This seems to me to give us the best mix of deception and time in the zone, Rafe."

"I agree," Cardones said in turn. "I just wish we could cover more area if we're going to split up anyway. However we go at it, you know we won't be there when someone gets hit, and the cartels are going to howl that we're—that you're—not doing our job if that happens."

"The cartels are just going to have to accept the best we can do," Honor replied. "Our shipping will still be hit whatever pattern we follow, and without more Q-ships, there's not much we can do about it. I know they're going to complain if we aren't covering a system and they lose a ship there, but the fact is that the pirates have the initiative. They're the ones who decide where they'll raid; all we can do is follow them and hurt them badly enough the survivors decide to go somewhere else. If we clear one area, they'll move to another and we'll follow them, which should at least let us cramp the scale of their operations. And once we pick a few of them off, the Admiralty can point to the kill numbers as proof that we're actually doing some good."

"You know what I wish?" Truman asked. Honor looked at her, and the other captain shrugged. "I wish we knew who was funding and supporting the bastards. You know as well as I do that the average piracy ring can afford to lose and replace vessels—and crews—all year long if as much as a third of them manage to take a decent prize on each cruise. Think about it. These eleven ships"—she tapped her screen, where the names of the most recently missing vessels were displayed—"represent an aggregate value of almost twelve billion just for the hulls. You can buy a lot of ships heavy enough to kill merchies for that kind of money."

"According to Commander Hauser, the Andies are working on that, just like ONI," Honor said. "If we can identify whoever's actually disposing of the ships and cargoes, we'll be in a position to demand their local authorities take action against them." Truman made a sound which might charitably have been called a laugh, and Honor shrugged. "I know a lot of the locals will be in bed with the pirates, but if they're too stupid—or dirty—to take at least pro forma action, I suspect Admiral Rabenstrange would be delighted to drop a squadron of the wall in on them to convince them to see reason. We, unfortunately, don't have that sort of firepower. All we can do is pour water on the fire and at least make them replace losses."



I'm not sure I agree with you. I copied most of the chapter from Honor Among Enemies. Given the information the Andies provided Honor it doesn't sound like the Peeps are the reason Honor was initially sent out there. The Admiralty wasn't even aware of the Peep raiding patterns. It's not until Honor meets with the Andies that it sounds like Peeps raiding patterns appear. This leads me to believe the Peeps were not the driving force for the Conservatives and the Admiralty to send honor out there.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Vince   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:06 am

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Sigs wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:Do you expect the RMMM to simply cease operations and the SKM abandon all trade outside of its own borders? Is it simply going to abrogate all of the mutual defense commitments it plans to make to stabilize human space while the SLN reorganizes?
Commerce protection where the need arises sure... commerce protection throughout human space outside the League hell no. MY point is that the GA should do everything possible to stabilize the situation in the short term, make key alliances with any newly independent core/shell systems and give everyone a basic level of defence.

The GA should stand between the core/shell and the Verge, guarantee the independence of the verge from interference by core/shell worlds and let them develop on their own. With verge systems having a basic level of security from piracy under their own control and being allowed to develop at their own pace free from interference keeps them firmly on the side of the GA in any future conflict.
Commerce protection is a never-ending mission. the parameters and intensity may change from time to time, but as long as there is commerce being conducted, there is a need for commerce protection. Mutual defense treaties with trading partners and basing/support agreements are all part of protecting Manticoran/GA commerce.
You are being vague with commerce protection so let me be specific here. The RMN has a duty to protect it's commerce, they should do so to the best of their abilities where there is a need.
They do not have the duty to protect commerce in the shell when most systems in the shell that gain independence have the abilities to build their own navies, in some cases very substantial navies.

Commerce protection where there is an surge of piracy that affects the SEM or the GA is a must, signing up for anti-piracy and commerce protection for potentially hundreds or more than 1,000 systems when a lot of those system can protect themselves and their commerce in the long run is not something the GA and the SEM should do.
They can only plan based on their best estimates extrapolating from what they know. Extrapolating a 800 kilo gorilla when all you have evidence for is a 1 kilo bobcat with rabies is militarily and financially irresponsible.
They have no conclusive evidence either way. The MA policy could have been to use force as a last resort, why use your ships and manpower to fight a war when you can get the League, the SEM and RoH to fight each other in a 3 way war?

The GA has just found that the MA has existed, and build up their plans for over 600 years, since their intelligence agencies missed that why should they be so confident that the MA has not build up a significant industrial power of their own backed up by a strong navy? Just because the MA has not used a large fleet in action against the GA doesn't mean that such a fleet doesn't exist. Assuming it doesn't exist just means that the end result could be a catastrophic defeat. Someone who just killed 60+ million GA citizens obviously does not have the best intentions when it comes to the GA assuming they are weak I just asking for trouble.

The GA knows that the Mesan Alignment doesn't have a large navy at the present time. White Haven reporting to the Empress immediately after the Yawata strike:
Mission of Honor, Chapter 30 wrote:Elizabeth started to speak, but White Haven raised an index finger, requesting attention. She looked at him for a moment, then nodded.
“I’d just like to add something to what Tom’s said, Your Majesty,” he said. “First, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the people who did this did it in hopes that either the League or the Republic will finish us off before we can recover. Frankly, I don’t know how likely they are to succeed, if that was their intention; there are too many political and diplomatic elements tied up in that kind of decision tree for me to offer any kind of meaningful opinion. But, secondly, the one thing that’s struck me about this—in addition to what Tom and Sonja have said about new drive technologies—is that the people behind it can’t have a very large navy.
“What?” Grantville blinked at his brother, and most of the other people around the table looked either surprised or downright skeptical. Caparelli, on the other hand, nodded firmly.
“Think about it, Willie,” White Haven said. “If someone had anything like the number of capital ships we have, and if all of them had this kind of technology, they wouldn’t have had to raid our infrastructure. They could have simply arrived, demonstrated their invisibility, and demanded our surrender, and we wouldn’t have had any choice but to give it to them. If they’d gotten a couple of dozen capital ships with this new drive of theirs as far in-system as they got their pods before launch, what other option would we have had? Even if we’d wanted to bring in Home Fleet—every single ship at Trevor’s Star, for that matter—they’d already have control of the planetary orbitals long before we could get into position. For that matter, they’d’ve been into missile range of the planets before we could even bring the system-defense missiles online to nail them! And even under the Eridani Edict, they’d be fully justified in bombarding the planets if we refused to surrender under those circumstances. But instead of going for the jugular, they attacked our arms and legs.
“Not only that, but the nature and pattern of the attack strongly suggest that whoever planned and launched it was operating with strictly limited resources. Yes, it was extraordinarily well planned and executed. From a professional perspective, I have to admire the ability, imagination, and skill behind it. But successful as it was, it was essentially a hit-and-run raid, albeit on a massive scale, and its success—as Tom has just pointed out—derived entirely from the fact that it achieved total strategic and tactical surprise. If any significant percentage of the weapons committed to it—either those graser platforms or the missile pods—had failed, or been detected on their way in, or even if we’d only suspected something was coming in time to alert the stations and activate their sidewalls and get the tugs deployed to interpose their wedges against potential attacks, the damage would have been much less severe. Give us fifteen or twenty minutes’ warning, and we’d’ve had a good ninety-five percent of our personnel off Hephasteus and Vulcan, for that matter, not to mention getting a lot of our ships out of the station docking slips! The people who put this together had to be as well aware of those possibilities as I am, and they have to know the axiom that anything which can go wrong, will go wrong. True, they seem to have pretty much avoided that this time around, but they damned well knew better than to count on that. So if they’d had more resources to commit to the attack, we’d have seen overkill, not just ‘exactly enough to do the job if everything works perfectly.’ ”
He shook his head.
“All of it points to the same conclusion. They’ve got this revolutionary new drive technology, but they don’t have it in large numbers. If they had the numbers, they’d either have been able to follow through with an outright knockout blow or have at least been able to deploy enough additional weapons to give them the sort of redundancy factor any competent planner would be looking for.
Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.
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History does not repeat itself so much as it echoes.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:14 pm

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I think Weird Harold is probably right, or mostly so, anyway. The point is not that Manticore knew about the Peep commerse raiding and decided to respond. They didn't which your quote amply demonstrates. The point is the other way around. Peep commerse raiding drove losses so high that Manticore was forced to respond which they did by sending the Trojans. At the time they did that, it was believed that they were dealing with increased piracy due to draw down of light units due to the demands at the front. That is what the text you are quoting demonstrates. While they only discover the Peep op later, it was Peep activity that drove the Admiralty to react by adding their own op to what was already a serious situation.

At the same time, Manticore's drawdown in light units did indeed take pressure of the pirates and make the situation worse.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:15 pm

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n7axw wrote:I think Weird Harold is probably right, or mostly so, anyway. The point is not that Manticore knew about the Peep commerse raiding and decided to respond. They didn't which your quote amply demonstrates. The point is the other way around. Peep commerse raiding drove losses so high that Manticore was forced to respond which they did by sending the Trojans. At the time they did that, it was believed that they were dealing with increased piracy due to draw down of light units due to the demands at the front. That is what the text you are quoting demonstrates. While they only discover the Peep op later, it was Peep activity that drove the Admiralty to react by adding their own op to what was already a serious situation.

At the same time, Manticore's drawdown in light units did indeed take pressure of the pirates and make the situation worse.

Don

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See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter as indicating the Peeps weren't raiding yet or had only recently started raiding. The Peeps commerce raiding pattern's didn't appear until after Honor was deployed. That's when she finds out essentially entire convoys are being punched out. That is why I don't believe the Peeps impacted the Admiralty's decision.

I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:52 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
n7axw wrote:I think Weird Harold is probably right, or mostly so, anyway. The point is not that Manticore knew about the Peep commerse raiding and decided to respond. They didn't which your quote amply demonstrates. The point is the other way around. Peep commerse raiding drove losses so high that Manticore was forced to respond which they did by sending the Trojans. At the time they did that, it was believed that they were dealing with increased piracy due to draw down of light units due to the demands at the front. That is what the text you are quoting demonstrates. While they only discover the Peep op later, it was Peep activity that drove the Admiralty to react by adding their own op to what was already a serious situation.

At the same time, Manticore's drawdown in light units did indeed take pressure of the pirates and make the situation worse.

Don

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See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter as indicating the Peeps weren't raiding yet or had only recently started raiding. The Peeps commerce raiding pattern's didn't appear until after Honor was deployed. That's when she finds out essentially entire convoys are being punched out. That is why I don't believe the Peeps impacted the Admiralty's decision.

I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.

I agree they were in the initial intel gathering phase

Nimitz
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:00 pm

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ywing14 wrote:See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter as indicating the Peeps weren't raiding yet or had only recently started raiding. The Peeps commerce raiding pattern's didn't appear until after Honor was deployed. That's when she finds out essentially entire convoys are being punched out. That is why I don't believe the Peeps impacted the Admiralty's decision.

I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.


The whole book constantly harps on the Highridge Government's lack of interest and lack of accurate intelligence about Silesia. It would have been exceedingly surprising if Honor's task force actually knew anything accurate before being deployed.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:15 pm

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Posts: 390
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Weird Harold wrote:
ywing14 wrote:See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter as indicating the Peeps weren't raiding yet or had only recently started raiding. The Peeps commerce raiding pattern's didn't appear until after Honor was deployed. That's when she finds out essentially entire convoys are being punched out. That is why I don't believe the Peeps impacted the Admiralty's decision.

I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.


The whole book constantly harps on the Highridge Government's lack of interest and lack of accurate intelligence about Silesia. It would have been exceedingly surprising if Honor's task force actually knew anything accurate before being deployed.


I'm talking about Honor Among Enemies, you're talking about War of Honor. High Ridge wasn't running the government in Honor Among Enemies. The Peeps didn't conduct and commerce raiding in War of Honor. There whole goal was to destroy Honor's SD(P)s at Marsh.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Nimitz1923PD   » Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:41 pm

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ywing14 wrote:
ywing14 wrote:See that is where I disagree. I interpret that chapter
I totally agree that the draw down made the situation nearly untenable.
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I'm talking about Honor Among Enemies, you're talking about War of Honor. High Ridge wasn't running the government in Honor Among Enemies. The Peeps didn't conduct and commerce raiding in War of Honor. There whole goal was to destroy Honor's SD(P)s at Marsh.



:mrgreen: Giancola was setting The IAN up as a cats paw


Nimitz
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