BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

ywing14 wrote:

cthia wrote:
I agree. Beowulf had talked and talked and talked until they were blue in the face. But I can't help but feel that their efforts were hampered by having no wind beneath their wings. Until the RMN, they never had the ability to talk from a position of power. They had no real power against a corrupted government and Constitution. Beowulf continued to play by the rules when the Mandarins had long thrown the rule book (Constitution) out. They couldn't afford to be truly rebellious until the RMN. Until then, they simply sounded like a nagging housewife. When that nagging housewife suddenly puts on a few pounds, is bringing home the bacon and is now wearing the pants, what does she do with her new found power? Get her house in order, or flee?

They really had no real political power, since the Mandarins were watering everything down but the front lawn.

All of Beowulf's previous talks had no bite and were too subdued. They couldn't play hard ball with the League and rap it on the snout to get its attention. Which could have come by way of formal press conferences, bypassing the middle men. The only way Beowulf was going to affect change by talking was to talk directly to the people and threaten secession. They couldn't afford to do that weighing in at a buck-o-five.

Enter their new bf. Suddenly, Beowulf can afford to be gutsy in their talks. They certainly became gutsy in their actions.

But their embassy never ever became a factor after the RMN. A time it should have grown some balls. Beowulf's embassy was a waste, IMO. Which should have changed after they began courting real muscles.

Ignoring the Mandarins and taking matters into their own hands in a series of strategic press confrences directed right at the man in the street should have become her new tactic. She wants a divorce now that a marriage counselor can make a difference.

Don't you at least pause when considering that Beowulf could have chosen to help bring the Mandarins down but remain part of the League it help found, instead of using its newly found windfall to flee instead of affect change?


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Would it have been a bad thing had they remained a part of the League now that a new sheriff is in town? Who's to keep an eye on the Solarian misfits now? And in about 50 years. . .

"Manticore, where for art thou black channel of rats?"

When they really really need them now. When the newly risen SLN has become 800# again, but this time all lean, mean and no fat atall.

Ahh thanks for posting the Hyperlink. Made it much easier to understand your points. I think you're completely wrong but your points are well argued.

There was never an opportunity for Beowulf to "use Manticore" until near the end of the Second War with Haven. All of your arguments are predicated on Manticore's willingness and position to assist Beowulf. None of this is certain. Frankly, Manticore likely would not have been interested in rocking the boat that much until after New Tuscany and Spindle. None of which was even possible until after the Battle of Manticore.

Better late than after the war.

I also argue in that post, that opportunity still existed for Beowulf to use her newfound bf late in the fourth quarter - during the 2 minute warning.

Why didn't Beowulf utilize her embassy and take the fight to the streets? Not the Assembly where only fools seem to tread. But to the man in the street who can really affect change. . .


ATTENTION!. . . . . . . . . .ATTENTION!
We interrupt regular programming to bring you a matter of life or death!


"Citizens of Terra. This is the Beowulfan Embassy. We regret to inform you that the Mandarins are about to. . . which could get many of your fellow citizens and possible loved ones slaughtered!"

"WHAT?!"

.

cthia wrote:Joat, there seems to be a limit to your understanding of karma. And you hit that ceiling a long time ago and have been back pedaling ever since. What good is talking about the positive things Beowulf did, and there are many, when discussing her flavor of karma?

Besides, her karma didn't come from the good things Beowulf did in the galaxy. It comes from the bad things Beowulf did to the testy Gorilla in the galaxy, with whom she was in a relationship.

And that is why you should not talk about karma, which is the concept that both GOOD and BAD actions have consequences.
What you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote:Joat, there seems to be a limit to your understanding of karma. And you hit that ceiling a long time ago and have been back pedaling ever since. What good is talking about the positive things Beowulf did, and there are many, when discussing her flavor of karma?

Besides, her karma didn't come from the good things Beowulf did in the galaxy. It comes from the bad things Beowulf did to the testy Gorilla in the galaxy, with whom she was in a relationship.

And that is why you should not talk about karma, which is the concept that both GOOD and BAD actions have consequences.
What you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans.

Should not? Why not? Perhaps you should explain to me what you have against the concept of karma? Perhaps you don't agree it should be in the dictionary? Perhaps you don't think that Beowulf can be bitten in her ass by her karma? Perhaps you don't think treason normally begets bad karma of the fatal kind? Do me the same favor and explain it to me, because I'm scratching my head and my arse.

No, what I'm saying is that if you know your abusive husband is abusive, has been kicking your or your family's ass for centuries, you don't poke him in his eye, spit in his face, play him for a fool, and stab him in the back and expect to get away with it, without consequences that you damned well know is his MO. The same MO he levied against many other systems while you were a part, for doing far less than what he's now up in arms about with you.

cthia wrote:Joat, there seems to be a limit to your understanding of karma. And you hit that ceiling a long time ago and have been back pedaling ever since. What good is talking about the positive things Beowulf did, and there are many, when discussing her flavor of karma?

Besides, her karma didn't come from the good things Beowulf did in the galaxy. It comes from the bad things Beowulf did to the testy Gorilla in the galaxy, with whom she was in a relationship.

tlb wrote:And that is why you should not talk about karma, which is the concept that both GOOD and BAD actions have consequences.
What you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans.

cthia wrote:Should not? Why not? Perhaps you should explain to me what you have against the concept of karma? Perhaps you don't agree it should be in the dictionary? Perhaps you don't think that Beowulf can be bitten in her ass by her karma? Perhaps you don't think treason normally begets bad karma of the fatal kind? Do me the same favor and explain it to me, because I'm scratching my head and my arse.

No, what I'm saying is that if you know your abusive husband is abusive, has been kicking your or your family's ass for centuries, you don't poke him in his eye, spit in his face, play him for a fool, and stab him in the back and expect to get away with it, without consequences that you damned well know is his MO. The same MO he levied against many other systems while you were a part, for doing far less than what he's now up in arms about with you.

I have nothing against the concept of karma, which I have attempted to define in the line I have highlighted; so of course it should be in the dictionary. I need to add that the good and bad actions are considered to weigh against each other.

It is your misuse of the world that I dislike. You keep using that word; but I do not believe it means what you think it means. And I also find the analogy of an abusive marriage to be flawed. The reason this matters is that words and phrases which carry heavy emotional weight cause people to respond to that emotion, instead of hearing whatever reasoning is hidden behind them.

I repeat: what you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans (the flaw in using "karma" is the lack of an impartial comparison of good to bad, the Mandarins only add up slights). For Beowulf: this means that trying to visibly break with the League in wartime will cause the bureaucrats to use force against them. In anticipation of that, you feel the government of Beowulf should be more circumspect.

Finally, Beowulf is NOT committing treason (except in the minds of the Mandarins and their minions) and the expected response from the SLN is not the result of karma (except in what passes for the minds of the Mandarins and their minions).

ywing14 wrote:

cthia wrote:
I agree. Beowulf had talked and talked and talked until they were blue in the face. But I can't help but feel that their efforts were hampered by having no wind beneath their wings. Until the RMN, they never had the ability to talk from a position of power. They had no real power against a corrupted government and Constitution. Beowulf continued to play by the rules when the Mandarins had long thrown the rule book (Constitution) out. They couldn't afford to be truly rebellious until the RMN. Until then, they simply sounded like a nagging housewife. When that nagging housewife suddenly puts on a few pounds, is bringing home the bacon and is now wearing the pants, what does she do with her new found power? Get her house in order, or flee?

They really had no real political power, since the Mandarins were watering everything down but the front lawn.

All of Beowulf's previous talks had no bite and were too subdued. They couldn't play hard ball with the League and rap it on the snout to get its attention. Which could have come by way of formal press conferences, bypassing the middle men. The only way Beowulf was going to affect change by talking was to talk directly to the people and threaten secession. They couldn't afford to do that weighing in at a buck-o-five.

Enter their new bf. Suddenly, Beowulf can afford to be gutsy in their talks. They certainly became gutsy in their actions.

But their embassy never ever became a factor after the RMN. A time it should have grown some balls. Beowulf's embassy was a waste, IMO. Which should have changed after they began courting real muscles.

Ignoring the Mandarins and taking matters into their own hands in a series of strategic press confrences directed right at the man in the street should have become her new tactic. She wants a divorce now that a marriage counselor can make a difference.

Don't you at least pause when considering that Beowulf could have chosen to help bring the Mandarins down but remain part of the League it help found, instead of using its newly found windfall to flee instead of affect change?


S

P

O

I

L

E

R



Would it have been a bad thing had they remained a part of the League now that a new sheriff is in town? Who's to keep an eye on the Solarian misfits now? And in about 50 years. . .

"Manticore, where for art thou black channel of rats?"

When they really really need them now. When the newly risen SLN has become 800# again, but this time all lean, mean and no fat atall.

Ahh thanks for posting the Hyperlink. Made it much easier to understand your points. I think you're completely wrong but your points are well argued.

There was never an opportunity for Beowulf to "use Manticore" until near the end of the Second War with Haven. All of your arguments are predicated on Manticore's willingness and position to assist Beowulf. None of this is certain. Frankly, Manticore likely would not have been interested in rocking the boat that much until after New Tuscany and Spindle. None of which was even possible until after the Battle of Manticore.

Better late than after the war.

I also argue in that post, that opportunity still existed for Beowulf to use her newfound bf late in the fourth quarter - during the 2 minute warning.

Why didn't Beowulf utilize her embassy and take the fight to the streets? Not the Assembly where only fools seem to tread. But to the man in the street who can really affect change. . .


ATTENTION!. . . . . . . . . .ATTENTION!
We interrupt regular programming to bring you a matter of life or death!


"Citizens of Terra. This is the Beowulfan Embassy. We regret to inform you that the Mandarins are about to. . . which could get many of your fellow citizens and possible loved ones slaughtered!"

"WHAT?!"

.[/quote]

They did use it during the 2 minute warning. Coming out in the open ahead of time would have been actual open treason. Beowulf would have lost any real moral authority by doing this. I'm also certain it would have negatively effected the ability of the Beowulf government's ability to get the votes it needed to secede. The Mandarins just would have been shouting treason a few weeks earlier. Who says they didn't take it to the streets? The Mandarins controlled the Media and Earth. it didn't matter what Beowulf tried to do. All the Mandarins did was manipulate the message through there control of the media. Who would have seen Beowulf's message? Exactly no one. Hell, the media wouldn't even show Hardley's speeches at the Assembly.

Manticore was telling everyone they were going to slaughter the ships of Raging Justice. How would Beowulf's voice suddenly have changed any of this. The Mandarins were clearly committed to the Fleet action and announced over and over there control of earth's population.

cthia wrote:Joat, there seems to be a limit to your understanding of karma. And you hit that ceiling a long time ago and have been back pedaling ever since. What good is talking about the positive things Beowulf did, and there are many, when discussing her flavor of karma?

Besides, her karma didn't come from the good things Beowulf did in the galaxy. It comes from the bad things Beowulf did to the testy Gorilla in the galaxy, with whom she was in a relationship.

tlb wrote:And that is why you should not talk about karma, which is the concept that both GOOD and BAD actions have consequences.
What you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans.

cthia wrote:Should not? Why not? Perhaps you should explain to me what you have against the concept of karma? Perhaps you don't agree it should be in the dictionary? Perhaps you don't think that Beowulf can be bitten in her ass by her karma? Perhaps you don't think treason normally begets bad karma of the fatal kind? Do me the same favor and explain it to me, because I'm scratching my head and my arse.

No, what I'm saying is that if you know your abusive husband is abusive, has been kicking your or your family's ass for centuries, you don't poke him in his eye, spit in his face, play him for a fool, and stab him in the back and expect to get away with it, without consequences that you damned well know is his MO. The same MO he levied against many other systems while you were a part, for doing far less than what he's now up in arms about with you.

tlb wrote:I have nothing against the concept of karma, which I have attempted to define in the line I have highlighted; so of course it should be in the dictionary. I need to add that the good and bad actions are considered to weigh against each other.

It is your misuse of the world that I dislike. You keep using that word; but I do not believe it means what you think it means. And I also find the analogy of an abusive marriage to be flawed. The reason this matters is that words and phrases which carry heavy emotional weight cause people to respond to that emotion, instead of hearing whatever reasoning is hidden behind them.

I repeat: what you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans (the flaw in using "karma" is the lack of an impartial comparison of good to bad, the Mandarins only add up slights). For Beowulf: this means that trying to visibly break with the League in wartime will cause the bureaucrats to use force against them. In anticipation of that, you feel the government of Beowulf should be more circumspect.

Finally, Beowulf is NOT committing treason (except in the minds of the Mandarins and their minions) and the expected response from the SLN is not the result of karma (except in what passes for the minds of the Mandarins and their minions).

Your disconnect is total. How on Terra do I get you to see it?

No, tlb.

Now it is obvious that you DO NOT understand Karma. That is NOT how Karma thinks. Karma has a split personality. Karma is played only by Karma's rules and trust me, she does NOT average your good with your bad. Each personality of Karma's has a one track mind that DOES NOT pit your good and bad against each other, nor do they consult or share opinions. In fact, Bad-Karma doesn't give aratsass about what you did good. Only Good-Karma cares about what you did good, and she'll send you some roses.

Bad-Karma is a self-righteous self-centered testy old bitch who is only concerned with the one thing you did wrong. Is this about Beowulf not receiving any roses? Beowulf received her roses, Good-Karma delivered unto Beowulf too. Good-Karma delivered the RMN unto Beowulf, and trust me they were carrying entire warships full of roses - only they call them Mk-16s or some stupid code name for roses. I suppose her new bf has a sense of humor.

The moral of this thread has always been If you don't want to be bitten in the ass by Karma, then don't get on her bad side.

tlb wrote:It is your misuse of the world that I dislike. You keep using that word; but I do not believe it means what you think it means.

I have no problem with your definition of Karma, she's easy to cross reference in the 800# dictionary. I have a problem with your understanding of Karma's profile in that 800# dictionary. Or rather you have a problem. She's a complex babe. You keep trying to twist her but you don't understand that she's already twisted.

tlb wrote:And I also find the analogy of an abusive marriage to be flawed. The reason this matters is that words and phrases which carry heavy emotional weight cause people to respond to that emotion, instead of hearing whatever reasoning is hidden behind them.

That emotion and that fact is why I used the analogy in the first place, to head off your initial nonsense way back upstream that the SLN, Mandarins and some of the League's citizens wouldn't see Beowulf's actions as treasonous. Look at it as a nanite tailored to do a specific job.

AND IT WORKED for many posters. . .

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Even before textev brought the cavalry over the hyper limit by writing it in stone. Now it's a moot point. You are now making the same mistake as you did in that thread you so subtly referenced where again, many of you are indeed making the same mistake by failing to see that there are two sides to each coin, and what we as readers may think, doesn't have a damn thing to do with all-of-the-characters' own mind. . .

tlb wrote:Is this thread just another attempt to poke the forum into a discussion of treason?

So, as you can see, the analogy of a marriage was to deal with the total disconnect you were having on that issue and that issue alone - which seems to be a recurrent theme. My EW platforms keep seeing the same thing from you.

tlb wrote:I repeat: what you are really trying to say is that the bureaucracy of the league is corrupt and will lash out at groups that try to diminish their power or impede their plans (the flaw in using "karma" is the lack of an impartial comparison of good to bad, the Mandarins only add up slights). For Beowulf: this means that trying to visibly break with the League in wartime will cause the bureaucrats to use force against them. In anticipation of that, you feel the government of Beowulf should be more circumspect.

Finally, Beowulf is NOT committing treason (except in the minds of the Mandarins and their minions) and the expected response from the SLN is not the result of karma (except in what passes for the minds of the Mandarins and their minions).

There you go again, tripping over treason. Tripping over the idea that "in the minds of the Mandarins" is exactly where it matters whether or not treason occurred when considering Karma. Or at least to their sensibilities. And tripping over the fact that the SLN is the Uber Cab Company in the galaxy that Bad-Karma calls to give her a ride. Karma has a running tab with the SLN. And she's had that open tab for centuries and she always pays up — I suppose that could be because she respects the ugly Gorilla's sensibilities better than you.

Did you know that Uber uses totally autonomous cars? They are self-driving automatons who work for self-serving automatons - both of whom have mindlessly followed the same route for centuries w/o deviation, but not without fail. Every now and again there's some bang-up somewhere down on some planet that they fail to take responsibility for. Was it not me who also argued against self-driving cars right here in this forum?

Was it also not me who shared with you my Drivers Ed. instructor's sentiment and warning right here in this thread?. . .

It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong.
Dead right or dead wrong, you are still dead.
Drive for the other idiot on the highway.
—cthia's Drivers Ed. instructor

Yep, that was cthia.

cthia wrote: That emotion and that fact is why I used the analogy in the first place, to head off your initial nonsense way back upstream that the SLN, Mandarins and some of the League's citizens wouldn't see Beowulf's actions as treasonous. Look at it as a nanite tailored to do a specific job.

AND IT WORKED for many posters. . .

I have always admitted that the Mandarins would present Beowulf's actions as being treasonous and I accept that there are those who would believe that false propaganda. I accept that fact as something the leadership of Beowulf needs to consider as they plan their nation's course. So it could be said that I accept your thesis and admit that your prescriptions might ameliorate the response expected from the League. **
So what you are choosing to argue is my continued resistance to the terms that you use to present your ideas. I find them larded with emotional content that distracts from the ideas that you struggle to convey and I think that much of that struggle is due to the slippery nature of those terms. If you do not like my resistance, that is your bad; because I do not see what you could to force me to change my mind.

Karma automatically weighs the good against the bad intentions of an entity's actions and generates the appropriate response.

** The hitch is that Beowulf has been assisting in the rebuilding and rearming of Manticore, starting before the de facto state of war. When the Mandarins and SLN learn this, then none of the things you suggest will prevent an armed response.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote: That emotion and that fact is why I used the analogy in the first place, to head off your initial nonsense way back upstream that the SLN, Mandarins and some of the League's citizens wouldn't see Beowulf's actions as treasonous. Look at it as a nanite tailored to do a specific job.

AND IT WORKED for many posters. . .

I have always admitted that the Mandarins would present Beowulf's actions as being treasonous and I accept that there are those who would believe that false propaganda. I accept that fact as something the leadership of Beowulf needs to consider as they plan their nation's course. So it could be said that I accept your thesis and admit that your prescriptions might ameliorate the response expected from the League. **
So what you are choosing to argue is my continued resistance to the terms that you use to present your ideas. I find them larded with emotional content that distracts from the ideas that you struggle to convey and I think that much of that struggle is due to the slippery nature of those terms. If you do not like my resistance, that is your bad; because I do not see what you could to force me to change my mind.

Karma automatically weighs the good against the bad intentions of an entity's actions and generates the appropriate response.

** The hitch is that Beowulf has been assisting in the rebuilding and rearming of Manticore, starting before the de facto state of war. When the Mandarins and SLN learn this, then none of the things you suggest will prevent an armed response.

No real issue of treason. First of all, the League Constitution allows planets to leave.

Second, not letting the League ships through the junction undoubtedly saved them. The most that could come through at any one time was seventeen according to textev and it would disrupt the junction for a long period of time.

So if the Tsang led fleet had gone through the junction...in small numbers at a time,,, they would have been casually destroyed. Beowulf saved them.

Beowulf did start building munitions for the GA but that was after they had been threatened by the mandarins.

Beowulf has morality, the League none. And karma is a bitch.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote: That emotion and that fact is why I used the analogy in the first place, to head off your initial nonsense way back upstream that the SLN, Mandarins and some of the League's citizens wouldn't see Beowulf's actions as treasonous. Look at it as a nanite tailored to do a specific job.

AND IT WORKED for many posters. . .

I have always admitted that the Mandarins would present Beowulf's actions as being treasonous and I accept that there are those who would believe that false propaganda. I accept that fact as something the leadership of Beowulf needs to consider as they plan their nation's course. So it could be said that I accept your thesis and admit that your prescriptions might ameliorate the response expected from the League. **
So what you are choosing to argue is my continued resistance to the terms that you use to present your ideas. I find them larded with emotional content that distracts from the ideas that you struggle to convey and I think that much of that struggle is due to the slippery nature of those terms. If you do not like my resistance, that is your bad; because I do not see what you could to force me to change my mind.

Karma automatically weighs the good against the bad intentions of an entity's actions and generates the appropriate response.

** The hitch is that Beowulf has been assisting in the rebuilding and rearming of Manticore, starting before the de facto state of war. When the Mandarins and SLN learn this, then none of the things you suggest will prevent an armed response.

I am going to consider billing you for all of the extra remedial time you require.

I have always admitted that the Mandarins would present Beowulf's actions as being treasonous and I accept that there are those who would believe that false propaganda.

NO. This is where you are still having problems.

1. The crux of your problems stem from the fact that you are still suffering from my arguing the stance that Oscar Saint-Just's proponents would consider Theisman's actions as treasonous, which is the subtle reason for your snipe at the end of your very first post of this thread. Your continued hard-on for all things cthia is still part and parcel to fueling your disconnect and impeding your understanding of even simple matters.

because

2. You still cannot fathom that Beowulf actually was treasonous to the sensibilities made between people and to their unspoken and implied responsibilities to their own founding.

You like Beowulf because she is so beautiful.

You think that she can do no wrong and that her shit doesn't stink. She has. It does.

I accept that fact as something the leadership of Beowulf needs to consider as they plan their nation's course. So it could be said that I accept your thesis and admit that your prescriptions might ameliorate the response expected from the League. **
So what you are choosing to argue is my continued resistance to the terms that you use to present your ideas. I find them larded with emotional content that distracts from the ideas that you struggle to convey and I think that much of that struggle is due to the slippery nature of those terms. If you do not like my resistance, that is your bad; because I do not see what you could to force me to change my mind.

I don't struggle to convey. You struggle to understand. Even a Gorilla can understand the concepts.

Karma automatically weighs the good against the bad intentions of an entity's actions and generates the appropriate response.

No No No! Karma doesn't even own a set of scales to weigh good against bad. Karma does not care about the googol of good you did all year. She only cares about the fact that you have her nostrils flaring now. Even a child can grasp it.

** The hitch is that Beowulf has been assisting in the rebuilding and rearming of Manticore, starting before the de facto state of war. When the Mandarins and SLN learn this, then none of the things you suggest will prevent an armed response.

Uh oh! Light at the end of the tunnel?
Will there finally be calm in Gilead?


Alas, only if I can get him to see that that armed response would also be related to Karma. Probably her big sister Karmala.

tlb wrote:

cthia wrote: That emotion and that fact is why I used the analogy in the first place, to head off your initial nonsense way back upstream that the SLN, Mandarins and some of the League's citizens wouldn't see Beowulf's actions as treasonous. Look at it as a nanite tailored to do a specific job.

AND IT WORKED for many posters. . .

I have always admitted that the Mandarins would present Beowulf's actions as being treasonous and I accept that there are those who would believe that false propaganda. I accept that fact as something the leadership of Beowulf needs to consider as they plan their nation's course. So it could be said that I accept your thesis and admit that your prescriptions might ameliorate the response expected from the League. **
So what you are choosing to argue is my continued resistance to the terms that you use to present your ideas. I find them larded with emotional content that distracts from the ideas that you struggle to convey and I think that much of that struggle is due to the slippery nature of those terms. If you do not like my resistance, that is your bad; because I do not see what you could to force me to change my mind.

Karma automatically weighs the good against the bad intentions of an entity's actions and generates the appropriate response.

** The hitch is that Beowulf has been assisting in the rebuilding and rearming of Manticore, starting before the de facto state of war. When the Mandarins and SLN learn this, then none of the things you suggest will prevent an armed response.

I am going to consider billing you for all of the extra remedial time you require.

I have always admitted that the Mandarins would present Beowulf's actions as being treasonous and I accept that there are those who would believe that false propaganda.

NO. This is where you are still having problems.

1. The crux of your problems stem from the fact that you are still suffering from my arguing the stance that Oscar Saint-Just's proponents would consider Theisman's actions as treasonous, which is the subtle reason for your snipe at the end of your very first post of this thread. Your continued hard-on for all things cthia is still part and parcel to fueling your disconnect and impeding your understanding of even simple matters.

because

2. You still cannot fathom that Beowulf actually was treasonous to the sensibilities made between people and to their unspoken and implied responsibilities to their own founding.

You like Beowulf because she is so beautiful.

You think that she can do no wrong and that her shit doesn't stink. She has. It does.

I accept that fact as something the leadership of Beowulf needs to consider as they plan their nation's course. So it could be said that I accept your thesis and admit that your prescriptions might ameliorate the response expected from the League. **
So what you are choosing to argue is my continued resistance to the terms that you use to present your ideas. I find them larded with emotional content that distracts from the ideas that you struggle to convey and I think that much of that struggle is due to the slippery nature of those terms. If you do not like my resistance, that is your bad; because I do not see what you could to force me to change my mind.

I don't struggle to convey. You struggle to understand. Even a Gorilla can understand the concepts.

Karma automatically weighs the good against the bad intentions of an entity's actions and generates the appropriate response.

No No No! Karma doesn't even own a set of scales to weigh good against bad. Karma does not care about the googol of good you did all year. She only cares about the fact that you have her nostrils flaring now. Even a child can grasp it.

** The hitch is that Beowulf has been assisting in the rebuilding and rearming of Manticore, starting before the de facto state of war. When the Mandarins and SLN learn this, then none of the things you suggest will prevent an armed response.

Uh oh! Light at the end of the tunnel?
Will there finally be calm in Gilead?


Alas, only if I can get him to see that that armed response would also be related to Karma. Probably her big sister Karmala.[/quote]

Please let's play nice. If you want to debate the nature of karma we probably need a few Hindus in. Payback might be a better word but it doesn't quite convey the same meaning.

Treason is a very tricky concept. Are people who oppose going to war traitors? Can you be a traitor if there is no war?

Right now, the US has disassociated itself from several UN bodies. Does that make us a traitor nation or merely one that has kept a sense of decency?

The Mandarins might feel that Beowulf is treasonous but that is merely their opinion.

And remember the great words of another (ironically) Harringon:

Treason never prospers for if does, none dare call it treason.

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Remember that at the end of UH, it is the mandarins under arrest by their own people.