New Manty ship ideas.

Trojan AMC had their LAC offset.

On missiles, if a ghost rider platform can get into close range of another ship, why can't a missile use a ghost rider wedge and stealth. MDM's could use a slow wedge to get in undetected then kick up a fast attack or even a stealth attack.

Surely a ghost rider wedge doesn't cost more than a MDM wedge.

Lord Skimper wrote:Trojan AMC had their LAC offset.

I posted a link earlier in this discussion which quite clearly highlighted the LAC bays which all were on the starboard side.

On missiles, if a ghost rider platform can get into close range of another ship, why can't a missile use a ghost rider wedge and stealth. MDM's could use a slow wedge to get in undetected then kick up a fast attack or even a stealth attack.

Surely a ghost rider wedge doesn't cost more than a MDM wedge.

Because that makes for slow, big missiles. And they already have stealthy armed weapons, it's called Mistletoe.

If a LAC has cruiser sidewalls and a BC graser, couldn't a DD or LC sized LAC have even stronger sidewalls, more armour and a SD sized graser? Without alpha nodes. A Large LAC say up to 50 K ton range could mount a great deal of weapon and options, everything from over sized weapons.

An aft Apollo torpedo tube and 6 mk23 tubes in each broadside. Enough for a double broadside stacked to 24 plus 2 Apollo and all the telemetry links. Plus lots of viper and SD point defense. Put a single SD graser on the nose. A capital ship killer LAC. 200+m x 25-50m x 25-50m.

Small crew lots of automation and ammunition and a long duration provisions, life support plus larger than average staterooms. Roland or larger staterooms.

Mounted lengthwise in the aft of a variety ships, up to a dozen in a SD sized support ship or even in a SD(C or L) one large launch or dock bay door, and an internal radial "magazine" with say 12 such ships and a broadside of 36 mk23 torpedo tubes and 4 Apollo tubes. Such a ship would not have pods but would be as armoured as a SD(P), without additional vulnerabilities. The large LAC ideally suited to wall combat. Mixed with SD(P) there would not need to have or could keep CLAC and Standard LAC available for other duties. The SD(C) might be a GSN variant of the Harrington 1 SD(P).

While the large LAC will be slower to launch and dock the SD(C) is a fully armoured SD. Modern Everything. If you can mount a streak drive on such a ship you would only need one such drive to move 13 ships of the wall. May even have room for keyhole 2.0, let alone building it into the Large LAC.

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/76/1

Indeed, making LACs bigger means less of them per carrier. At present, a LAC wing is about 100 LACs flying off a 6.2MT carrier. Double the tonnage of a LAC and the carrier theoretically loses half its brood. I say theoretically, because the things wouldn't even fit without extensively refitting the CLAC's bays.

Besides, at 50kton you could simply add alpha nodes, a hyper generator, swap the revolver-style missile magazines for conventional launchers and call it a frigate. Double the tonnage again and you're into modern non-MDM destroyer brackets. And multi-megaton carriers aren't needed to haul those around.

munroburton wrote:

Duckk wrote:http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/76/1

Indeed, making LACs bigger means less of them per carrier. At present, a LAC wing is about 100 LACs flying off a 6.2MT carrier. Double the tonnage of a LAC and the carrier theoretically loses half its brood. I say theoretically, because the things wouldn't even fit without extensively refitting the CLAC's bays.

Besides, at 50kton you could simply add alpha nodes, a hyper generator, swap the revolver-style missile magazines for conventional launchers and call it a frigate. Double the tonnage again and you're into modern non-MDM destroyer brackets. And multi-megaton carriers aren't needed to haul those around.

The tonnage in question of each individual LAC doesn't really matter. What certainly does matter is if it is an effective platform. At some point one crosses back over to where DD's and LT's provide a cheaper solution for anti missile defense for fleet action. If DD's are going to 300k ton to be an effective unit, then a 50,000 ton LAC doesn't seem outlandish. Here I am assuming tougher sidewalls more PDLC, CM's over current LAC's. Gotta remember that LAC's effecitvely are anti missile defense, not offensive punch as posted up above.

Does the future require MK-16 firing LAC's? Make an argument for DDM LAC's and why such a load out decision would be decisive in LAC warfare. Dare I say it. Will the future be 2 stage viper missiles for LAC's? By this time, its pop-gun viper warhead will be worthless against DD's with tougher sidewalls, so its warhead will need to be upgraded, making the MK-16 equipped LAC more realistic. Maybe 2 super short staged "viper" equivalent?

The capabilities of a LAC do not scale up well. Making it larger requires larger crew, greater maintenance, a larger percentage of volume devoted to life-support, living quarters, maintenance access, and other non-weapon equipment. It will have much less stealth, and be a bigger slower target, and thus much less survivable. The fission generator on a Manticoran LAC would not be sufficient for a LAC of that size. You'd have to go with a fusion generator. At that point you are simply building a non-hyper frigate. The idea was discussed on the Bar and disposed of in the Pearl Duckk pointed to about Heavy Attack Craft. Another Pearl is also somewhat relevant (though the ships specifically mentioned are somewhat larger): http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/84/1.

Skimper, you really, really do need to read the Pearls.

A Roland or a Roland speed HAC is faster than a LAC. LAC can't scratch the paint of a SD. By taking out the hyper and adding armour as a scaled up LAC in stead of CL sidewalls and a BC Graser with LAC missiles that can't touch a SD. A Sollie SD vs a CLAC is a victorious Sollie SD shooting whatever gets close enough. A Sollie SD vs a SD(C) is punched out at 40-50 million klicks with the first wave. A Dozen Sollie SD's might corner and hunt down punch out the CLAC and all the LAC. A Dozen Sollie SD would be punched out by a Single SD(C), and HAC. While a SD(P) could likewise take out any Sollie SD it is only one ship and can't be in more than one place for other duties.

Even a single HAC could engage and destroy any single Sollie ship. Although a SD would be difficult, however one on one a HAC could keep out of range of it and could fire waves of SD killer mk23's. However outside of energy range the tube launched cataphract missiles can't hit very hard compared to a mk23.

An HAC wouldn't have very many crew members. A fission pile isn't something that requires constant service, no hyper generator or associated features. Yes counter missile / viper and SD point defense will be crewed. 6 missile tubes per broadside don't require huge crews. 1 Apollo tube and 1 SD graser.

About 20 - 30 crew.

Ok, I've tried to be patient, but we're way past the point this has ceased to be funny. As in, "we're in another hemisphere away from funny." You really need to do your research.

Lord Skimper wrote:A Roland or a Roland speed HAC is faster than a LAC.

If you're referring to the accel figures given in HoS, those are the numbers for when the class was first launched. They do not take into account any subsequent improvement in impeller or compensator tech. A LAC, given the same generation of compensator as a Roland, is capable of more acceleration than a Roland.

LAC can't scratch the paint of a SD.

Go reread MoH.

Of course, the Shrike-B, like her own Typhoon, had significantly improved its graser's grav lensing when the newest generation of bow wall came in. The Bravos really could blast their way through SD armor, assuming they could get close enough.

By taking out the hyper and adding armour as a scaled up LAC in stead of CL sidewalls and a BC Graser with LAC missiles that can't touch a SD. A Sollie SD vs a CLAC is a victorious Sollie SD shooting whatever gets close enough. A Sollie SD vs a SD(C) is punched out at 40-50 million klicks with the first wave. A Dozen Sollie SD's might corner and hunt down punch out the CLAC and all the LAC. A Dozen Sollie SD would be punched out by a Single SD(C), and HAC. While a SD(P) could likewise take out any Sollie SD it is only one ship and can't be in more than one place for other duties.

HACs do not make sense, period. You are grossly overestimating the effectiveness of a HAC, nor are you considering the (lack of) cost effectiveness.

Even a single HAC could engage and destroy any single Sollie ship. Although a SD would be difficult, however one on one a HAC could keep out of range of it and could fire waves of SD killer mk23's.

No frigate sized hull is going to mount enough MDM tubes and magazines to threaten a even a Sollie SD. You would need scores to sufficiently threaten a ship, but at that point your economy of ships just goes right out the window. The kind of industrial and personnel investment would be better suited in any capital ship, whether it be a BC or a SD.

However outside of energy range the tube launched cataphract missiles can't hit very hard compared to a mk23.

A 50,000 ton hull is nowhere near close enough mount enough armor and internal subdivisioning, especially with all this other stuff you want to cram in, to make it immune to even BC missiles. The Cataphract-B is more than capable of hurting such a puny ship, and even Cataphract-As would do the job in reasonable numbers.

An HAC wouldn't have very many crew members. A fission pile isn't something that requires constant service, no hyper generator or associated features. Yes counter missile / viper and SD point defense will be crewed. 6 missile tubes per broadside don't require huge crews. 1 Apollo tube and 1 SD graser.

About 20 - 30 crew.

A LAC's fission plant is barely enough to power a modern LAC. There is no way it can power anything larger.

Secondly, "30 crew" is meaningless. Whatever you call this thing, it's still going to need specialist officers, WOs, and NCOs crewing the important parts, like tactical, engineering, conn, etc. Those are the exact sort of people that any navy has trouble scraping up. As shown in the last few books, the RMN already is stretched thin scraping up the personnel to command its LAC fleet, Rolands, Wolfhounds, and the like, and they're ships which are far better suited. Your HAC does nothing to alleviate, and in fact exacerbates the problem by tying people up in less capable platforms.

OK weapons then, how about making modular mdm's.

Like an artillery gun or a big battleship gun how about making a missile that has a warhead with modular as many drive units attached as one may wish to mount and use. Similar to Land or Naval artillery with bags of powered propellant. 1 bag up close 3 for long range...

Also why can't planet side factories make missiles? Or ship parts?