What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

Relax wrote:Santino holding a system as an example? HAHAHAHAHAHA

This discussion need go no further.

I didn't say he should have held the system, I said he got in that situation because he assumed he had overwhelming tech advantages and didn't bother to act like a responsible station commander.

Relax wrote:Of course you somehow think a DD scouting with RD's can somehow magically see inside pods and tell if missiles are MDM, DDM, or SDM. Or hey, maybe if an RD sits in system for weeks they can tell if there are spider grazer torpedos in the pods! As if an RD from a BC raiding force or an SD task group couldn't find out the exact same thing.

A DD or independent RD (as used at Monica) that spends a day or two scouting just might see something -- like maybe sneaking up on a pod shoal and reading the part and serial numbers -- that would change the commanders tactics. I doubt a spread of RDs that only have hours to survey the direct path to the target would be able to get that close.

The Janacek admiralty and High Ridge government held the same opinion that you do -- "we have an overwhelming tech advantage so we don't need an intelligence network or scouting reports." How well did that work out for them?

Vince wrote:Scouting is useful. But sometimes sticking your nose to see what is there in is also useful.

It's called a reconnaissance (or raid) in force.

Which is done with considerably heavier forces than scouting missions, but not a full-blown invasion fleet.

But Relax isn't talking about doing a reconnaissance in Force, he's talking about relying on information that is up to two years old. Just bulling in with an all up SD Task Force and wiping out a systems defenses and infrastructure.

Quite aside from the minor detail that the GA isn't planning on fighting that kind of war because they can't win the peace afterwards, relying on information (gathered by merchantmen) without scouting beforehand is a good way to lose a SD task force.

One doesn't need a moon ship/death star to launch large system missiles. If your missiles are going to be LAC sized they could be launched from a core world or from any planet / moon or asteroid in a system.

Of course a large missile could have very long ranges or even full lac weapons. If unmanned an LAC could achieve high acceleration rates and active offensive / defensive weapons systems.

However it becomes a drone like weapon system, but then recon drones already are and missiles are very much like drones as well.

Such a LAC missile would be able to largely ignore CM and most PD fire. Would have using grasers, a stand off range of 1 million km in place of 25,000 km. And unlike a graser torpedo would be multifire capable. Mind you it would also be a big enough target for standard missiles. However having a 3-5000g acceleration rate would make it hard to hit.  

Weird Harold wrote:The Janacek admiralty and High Ridge government held the same opinion that you do -- "we have an overwhelming tech advantage so we don't need an intelligence network or scouting reports." How well did that work out for them?

Because they sat back for 5 years and didn't use their tech advantage They gave the enemy the worst weapon of all... Time. Time to plan, Time to adapt, Time to recover.

In other words, Flawed Example!

Chyort wrote:Because they sat back for 5 years and didn't use their tech advantage

So five years of Victory Disease is bad, but two years of Victory Disease isn't?

In terms of the scouting debate, I come down of Harold's side, but not for exactly the same arguments that he is making.

You see, scouting using a DD or CL can have multiple purposes in the type of war the SEM/GA plan to fight against the SL (the MAlignment War, once we get to it, will be something quite different, IMHO).

And the point that this war is not a matter of sending in the SD's and blowing up the systems's space economy (as Honor and Tourville did in AAC, for example) is well-taken. This is primarily a psychological war, aimed at breaking systems/regions off from the SL. The more damage done to said systems, the more likely they will be to seek revenge some time in the future against the SEM/GA.

So....a couple of destroyers (one Roland, one older Chanson) pop into the Brunswick system. They remain out near the hyper limit, grabbing a couple of unlucky freighters that happened to be inbound (crews are released in their own pinnaces) and intimidating the tow centuries-old LC's and dozen LAC's of the systems SDF. After about 4-5 days, they hyper out (with the freighters, using prize crews quartered on the Chanson.

True enough, the data gathered may be useful, and taking a couple more cargo ships out of the economy will hurt some, but the psychological effects will be tremendous.

See, the Core Worlds have been at peace for literally hundreds of years....that's a concept that is hard for folks like us, who even in 'peaceful' societies today usually have soldiers deployed and spend bucks on their militaries 'just in case'. Just the threat of 'war' in their backyard may terrify them--and when the SLN can't respond (on account that they are now getting literally hundreds of requests from panic-stricken systems, then IMHO, that system will look at the alternatives and it will decide to seek a 'peaceful' solution--somethig that the GA will be happy to offer (said offer having been transmitted by the DD's before they left the system.

So for totally different reasons than Weird Harold, I do think 'scouting' is a valid and reasonable approach.


And just one last comment--I have seen trolls, I have on one occasion been a troll (not here, not ever), and nobody in this thread is a troll; just a bunch of folks with strong opinions and who are well-read on the Honorverse.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:So....a couple of destroyers (one Roland, one older Chanson) pop into the Brunswick system. They remain out near the hyper limit, grabbing a couple of unlucky freighters that happened to be inbound (crews are released in their own pinnaces) and intimidating the tow centuries-old LC's and dozen LAC's of the systems SDF. After about 4-5 days, they hyper out (with the freighters, using prize crews quartered on the Chanson.

That scenario is commerce raiding, not scouting.

Still, you're pretty much spot on as to why Manticore and the GA need small ships more than they need SDs for the immediate future. And why they need streak drives in smaller ships.

Hutch wrote:So....a couple of destroyers (one Roland, one older Chanson) pop into the Brunswick system. They remain out near the hyper limit, grabbing a couple of unlucky freighters that happened to be inbound (crews are released in their own pinnaces) and intimidating the tow centuries-old LC's and dozen LAC's of the systems SDF. After about 4-5 days, they hyper out (with the freighters, using prize crews quartered on the Chanson.

Weird Harold wrote:[That scenario is commerce raiding, not scouting.

There is no law against multi-tasking....

Still, you're pretty much spot on as to why Manticore and the GA need small ships more than they need SDs for the immediate future. And why they need streak drives in smaller ships.

Indeed, but I am also coming to the conclusion that given research, development, engineering and testing lead times, that when the GA Streak drive is ready to be widely produced and installed, at least 18 months will have passed, the SL will be fractured beyond repair, and GA ships will be so scattered on missions to try to maintain order (moreso in the Verge and Protectorates) that the consensus will be to add Streak drives to the next Generation of all ships, rather than refit the older ships.

Like I said above, I have not reached a final conclusion on that, but it is the way I am leaning.

Hutch wrote:

Hutch wrote:So....a couple of destroyers (one Roland, one older Chanson) pop into the Brunswick system. They remain out near the hyper limit, grabbing a couple of unlucky freighters that happened to be inbound (crews are released in their own pinnaces) and intimidating the tow centuries-old LC's and dozen LAC's of the systems SDF. After about 4-5 days, they hyper out (with the freighters, using prize crews quartered on the Chanson.

Weird Harold wrote:[That scenario is commerce raiding, not scouting.

There is no law against multi-tasking....

Still, you're pretty much spot on as to why Manticore and the GA need small ships more than they need SDs for the immediate future. And why they need streak drives in smaller ships.

Indeed, but I am also coming to the conclusion that given research, development, engineering and testing lead times, that when the GA Streak drive is ready to be widely produced and installed, at least 18 months will have passed, the SL will be fractured beyond repair, and GA ships will be so scattered on missions to try to maintain order (moreso in the Verge and Protectorates) that the consensus will be to add Streak drives to the next Generation of all ships, rather than refit the older ships.

Like I said above, I have not reached a final conclusion on that, but it is the way I am leaning.

Hutch, I think you are making sense here. Precisely because of the need to keep order there is going to be a huge need for lighter built vessels and it certainly makes sense to put in the streaks, presuming that a viable design for that is available.

The GA has also decided to add SDPs as it girds for the conflict with the Alignment which could happen sooner than we think. It would be foolish in view of that not to build the most technologically advanced vessels possible.

Don

Weird Harold wrote:

Chyort wrote:Because they sat back for 5 years and didn't use their tech advantage

So five years of Victory Disease is bad, but two years of Victory Disease isn't?

Ahh... But the rooster crows at midnight...

Oh, and John has a long mustache.


My comments or cryptic code phrases have about as much relevance as yours do without any context/explanation.


But i would like to add another spoke to your wheel however.

Did Manticores allies also suffer a 5 year lobotomy? I don't think they did... And they still barely managed to discover the mere existence of bolthole.

And a few years after thunderbolt and the High Ridge government fell they had still failed to find bolthole despite their best efforts. Which had nothing to do with too much faith in their tech advantage.