Honorverse ramblings and musings

Joat42 wrote:

Dauntless wrote:i have to admit the ignoring 20 years of reports thing has always struck me as insane even for the "invincible" SLN.

You have to remember that any information coming into SLN's ONI departments has to pass a couple of filters.
1. Any reports what neobarbs are up to are always suspect and not particularly important.
2. Is the information politically correct (ie. punish the bearer of bad news)?
3. Does the information fit with the view SLN has (ie. not invented here syndrome)?
4. MAlign operatives or stooges may downplay or alter the information to keep the SLN in the dark.

The reverse is also somewhat true for RMN's ONI, before the clashed with SLN they didn't really pay attention to what technological advancements where going on in the league since their main effort where totally focused on Haven and SLN as an opponent wasn't on the radar. The Cataphracts where a nasty surprise for the RMN when SLN used them for the first time.

The RMN ONI had fairly detailed records on the major SLN players, and used the RMN and the MMM to keep a handle on items happening in the SL (Project GARM was all about that - the basis of the Manty buildup was finding all the various diverging techs around the Galaxy and analyzing them and seeing if they could be capitalized upon either monetarily or militarly. For-ex - They saw the SLN's laser head failures and started their own investigations in to the tech, deploying their own variant only 1 year after the Andermani (who bought the failed tech direct from the manufacturer).

@ Manticore, Honor already knew about the Cataphracts from Torch, and the SLN didn't develop or build them - the Malign did, and gifted them mysteriously to the SLN weeks before battle.

Dauntless wrote:I thought first cataphracts were used against the Maya Sector admrial @ torch?

the RMN got copies of his reports from the torchies. Abigail and Niomi Kaplan discuss them at one point, I think a sim on the way to New tuscany?

the first person to use actual catahpracts against the RMN was Filatra @ second manticore.

if you mean the missiles used at monica, then my understanding is that they were not cataphracts but system defence pods.

That sums up my understanding as well.

Weird Harold wrote:

Dauntless wrote:I thought first cataphracts were used against the Maya Sector admrial @ torch?

the RMN got copies of his reports from the torchies. Abigail and Niomi Kaplan discuss them at one point, I think a sim on the way to New tuscany?

the first person to use actual catahpracts against the RMN was Filatra @ second manticore.

if you mean the missiles used at monica, then my understanding is that they were not cataphracts but system defence pods.

That sums up my understanding as well.

Hardly means much. It's an upgrade for the Sollies but still can't match the Manties.

Weird Harold wrote:

Dauntless wrote:I thought first cataphracts were used against the Maya Sector admrial @ torch?

the RMN got copies of his reports from the torchies. Abigail and Niomi Kaplan discuss them at one point, I think a sim on the way to New tuscany?

the first person to use actual catahpracts against the RMN was Filatra @ second manticore.

if you mean the missiles used at monica, then my understanding is that they were not cataphracts but system defence pods.

That sums up my understanding as well.

Ah, you are correct - I forgot about the details.

But, there is one thing you are taking for granted as a reader: Does anyone in the SEM/GA know that MAlign was the origin of the cataphract? Isn't it believed that it's a pure Technodyne product?

It should be noted however that there is a known connection between Technodyne and the Mesan planetary board, it was mentioned in CoG.

Court is in session...

People vs Two-legs

ldwechsler wrote: I would guess Clean Killer would not care for Colin. But I doubt he would go nuts unless the situation called for it.

First, disclaimer: Ldwechsler, you and I disagree on this point immensely. Although, you could certainly be just as right as I.

I, however, not only think that Colin better be in armor if he does come into a treecat's range, I think the 'Cats would be justified.

There is something that has always nagged at me. But there's so much shit in my head that I can only attend to one turd at a time.

Again, IMO, Clean Killer is looking to give a visual example of the definition of a treecat's enemy. Some of you have objected to this notion. I wonder if part of the objection stems from some notion that that kind of action from a treecat would make them bad. After all, by human law, citizens can't go around taking the law into their own hands, vigilante justice. But that has never seemed to be fair to me. Treecats are not humans. It is true that they do not understand a lot of human foibles, but that cuts both ways.

Who has the right to level justice on any perpetrators of the Yawata strike? Should the right fall to the treecats or to their two-legs? Manticorans were killed. Treecats were killed. An entire treecat Clan was wiped away! It reminds me of governments here on Earth trying to extradite an individual(s) because they thought the apprehended criminal had done more wrong to them, therefore they should have the honor of sentencing and punishment. Even states routinely fight over this one...

"He did this to us."

"So what, he did this and this to us!"

Isn't it the same scenario for the People vs Two-legs. A matter of jurisdiction.

Clean Killer wants to hand out treecat justice which Manticore MUST one day acknowledge if they are truly committed to recognizing the cats as a sentient species, deserving of their right to make their own laws -- and adhere to their already existing laws, and thus punishment to accompany those laws.

The notion is as clear in human history as it should be respected and allowed in the treecat species. <We'll help you hunt down the perpetrators of this horrendous crime. But Colin Detweiler. Leave that sumbitch to us!>

cthia wrote:Court is in session...

People vs Two-legs

ldwechsler wrote: I would guess Clean Killer would not care for Colin. But I doubt he would go nuts unless the situation called for it.

First, disclaimer: Ldwechsler, you and I disagree on this point immensely. Although, you could certainly be just as right as I.

I, however, not only think that Colin better be in armor if he does come into a treecat's range, I think the 'Cats would be justified.

There is something that has always nagged at me. But there's so much shit in my head that I can only attend to one turd at a time.

Again, IMO, Clean Killer is looking to give a visual example of the definition of a treecat's enemy. Some of you have objected to this notion. I wonder if part of the objection stems from some notion that that kind of action from a treecat would make them bad. After all, by human law, citizens can't go around taking the law into their own hands, vigilante justice. But that has never seemed to be fair to me. Treecats are not humans. It is true that they do not understand a lot of human foibles, but that cuts both ways.

Who has the right to level justice on any perpetrators of the Yawata strike? Should the right fall to the treecats or to their two-legs? Manticorans were killed. Treecats were killed. An entire treecat Clan was wiped away! It reminds me of governments here on Earth trying to extradite an individual(s) because they thought the apprehended criminal had done more wrong to them, therefore they should have the honor of sentencing and punishment. Even states routinely fight over this one...

"He did this to us."

"So what, he did this and this to us!"

Isn't it the same scenario for the People vs Two-legs. A matter of jurisdiction.

Clean Killer wants to hand out treecat justice which Manticore MUST one day acknowledge if they are truly committed to recognizing the cats as a sentient species, deserving of their right to make their own laws -- and adhere to their already existing laws, and thus punishment to accompany those laws.

The notion is as clear in human history as it should be respected and allowed in the treecat species. <We'll help you hunt down the perpetrators of this horrendous crime. But Colin Detweiler. Leave that sumbitch to us!>

Cthia,

I think you are presuming that the cats are not going to be able to control their passions and will be unable to allow justice to take its course. That's not so. Usually the cats restrain themselves quite well, sometimes under extreme provacation. Colin is probably quite safe unless he directly attacks the cat's person. In the past, that has been the threshhold.

Don

-

cthia wrote:Court is in session...

People vs Two-legs

ldwechsler wrote: I would guess Clean Killer would not care for Colin. But I doubt he would go nuts unless the situation called for it.

First, disclaimer: Ldwechsler, you and I disagree on this point immensely. Although, you could certainly be just as right as I.

I, however, not only think that Colin better be in armor if he does come into a treecat's range, I think the 'Cats would be justified.

There is something that has always nagged at me. But there's so much shit in my head that I can only attend to one turd at a time.

Again, IMO, Clean Killer is looking to give a visual example of the definition of a treecat's enemy. Some of you have objected to this notion. I wonder if part of the objection stems from some notion that that kind of action from a treecat would make them bad. After all, by human law, citizens can't go around taking the law into their own hands, vigilante justice. But that has never seemed to be fair to me. Treecats are not humans. It is true that they do not understand a lot of human foibles, but that cuts both ways.

Who has the right to level justice on any perpetrators of the Yawata strike? Should the right fall to the treecats or to their two-legs? Manticorans were killed. Treecats were killed. An entire treecat Clan was wiped away! It reminds me of governments here on Earth trying to extradite an individual(s) because they thought the apprehended criminal had done more wrong to them, therefore they should have the honor of sentencing and punishment. Even states routinely fight over this one...

"He did this to us."

"So what, he did this and this to us!"

Isn't it the same scenario for the People vs Two-legs. A matter of jurisdiction.

Clean Killer wants to hand out treecat justice which Manticore MUST one day acknowledge if they are truly committed to recognizing the cats as a sentient species, deserving of their right to make their own laws -- and adhere to their already existing laws, and thus punishment to accompany those laws.

The notion is as clear in human history as it should be respected and allowed in the treecat species. <We'll help you hunt down the perpetrators of this horrendous crime. But Colin Detweiler. Leave that sumbitch to us!>

n7axw wrote:Cthia,

I think you are presuming that the cats are not going to be able to control their passions and will be unable to allow justice to take its course. That's not so. Usually the cats restrain themselves quite well, sometimes under extreme provacation. Colin is probably quite safe unless he directly attacks the cat's person. In the past, that has been the threshhold.

Don

-

Not exactly. I am presuming the cats will not want to control their passions, thus, leading to treecat justice. Especially Clean Killer.

It all comes back to the definition of a treecat's enemy. Essentially, dead or alive. Not incarcerated. Treecats should certainly get to look their enemy in the eye.

I don't mean to make the 'Cats out to be loose cannons. On the contrary. I'm simply entertaining the idea that the cats, being an intelligent species, are impacted by the psychological aspects of certain things, as well. Treecats have been hurt in ways that humans cannot fathom. For Manticore to seize the small chance of emotionally healing away from the cats, derived from the psychological impact of having dealt with your own enemies, yourself, is selfish.

I cannot stress enough that it is personal to the 'Cats.

cthia wrote:Court is in session...

People vs Two-legs

ldwechsler wrote: I would guess Clean Killer would not care for Colin. But I doubt he would go nuts unless the situation called for it.

First, disclaimer: Ldwechsler, you and I disagree on this point immensely. Although, you could certainly be just as right as I.

I, however, not only think that Colin better be in armor if he does come into a treecat's range, I think the 'Cats would be justified.

There is something that has always nagged at me. But there's so much shit in my head that I can only attend to one turd at a time.

Again, IMO, Clean Killer is looking to give a visual example of the definition of a treecat's enemy. Some of you have objected to this notion. I wonder if part of the objection stems from some notion that that kind of action from a treecat would make them bad. After all, by human law, citizens can't go around taking the law into their own hands, vigilante justice. But that has never seemed to be fair to me. Treecats are not humans. It is true that they do not understand a lot of human foibles, but that cuts both ways.

Who has the right to level justice on any perpetrators of the Yawata strike? Should the right fall to the treecats or to their two-legs? Manticorans were killed. Treecats were killed. An entire treecat Clan was wiped away! It reminds me of governments here on Earth trying to extradite an individual(s) because they thought the apprehended criminal had done more wrong to them, therefore they should have the honor of sentencing and punishment. Even states routinely fight over this one...

"He did this to us."

"So what, he did this and this to us!"

Isn't it the same scenario for the People vs Two-legs. A matter of jurisdiction.

Clean Killer wants to hand out treecat justice which Manticore MUST one day acknowledge if they are truly committed to recognizing the cats as a sentient species, deserving of their right to make their own laws -- and adhere to their already existing laws, and thus punishment to accompany those laws.

The notion is as clear in human history as it should be respected and allowed in the treecat species. <We'll help you hunt down the perpetrators of this horrendous crime. But Colin Detweiler. Leave that sumbitch to us!>

n7axw wrote:Cthia,

I think you are presuming that the cats are not going to be able to control their passions and will be unable to allow justice to take its course. That's not so. Usually the cats restrain themselves quite well, sometimes under extreme provacation. Colin is probably quite safe unless he directly attacks the cat's person. In the past, that has been the threshhold.

Don

-

Pardon my bold.

That just might be a bit too specific, therefore limiting. I think the threshold would be closer to something like danger, revenge and possibly even fear.

Also, attack has already happened. Not to a treecat's person (well, possibly to some treecat), but to their own people and their two-legs. And the varmints haven't been dealt with, yet.

cthia wrote:Court is in session...

People vs Two-legs

ldwechsler wrote: I would guess Clean Killer would not care for Colin. But I doubt he would go nuts unless the situation called for it.

First, disclaimer: Ldwechsler, you and I disagree on this point immensely. Although, you could certainly be just as right as I.

I, however, not only think that Colin better be in armor if he does come into a treecat's range, I think the 'Cats would be justified.

There is something that has always nagged at me. But there's so much shit in my head that I can only attend to one turd at a time.

Again, IMO, Clean Killer is looking to give a visual example of the definition of a treecat's enemy. Some of you have objected to this notion. I wonder if part of the objection stems from some notion that that kind of action from a treecat would make them bad. After all, by human law, citizens can't go around taking the law into their own hands, vigilante justice. But that has never seemed to be fair to me. Treecats are not humans. It is true that they do not understand a lot of human foibles, but that cuts both ways.

Who has the right to level justice on any perpetrators of the Yawata strike? Should the right fall to the treecats or to their two-legs? Manticorans were killed. Treecats were killed. An entire treecat Clan was wiped away! It reminds me of governments here on Earth trying to extradite an individual(s) because they thought the apprehended criminal had done more wrong to them, therefore they should have the honor of sentencing and punishment. Even states routinely fight over this one...

"He did this to us."

"So what, he did this and this to us!"

Isn't it the same scenario for the People vs Two-legs. A matter of jurisdiction.

Clean Killer wants to hand out treecat justice which Manticore MUST one day acknowledge if they are truly committed to recognizing the cats as a sentient species, deserving of their right to make their own laws -- and adhere to their already existing laws, and thus punishment to accompany those laws.

The notion is as clear in human history as it should be respected and allowed in the treecat species. <We'll help you hunt down the perpetrators of this horrendous crime. But Colin Detweiler. Leave that sumbitch to us!>

n7axw wrote:Cthia,

I think you are presuming that the cats are not going to be able to control their passions and will be unable to allow justice to take its course. That's not so. Usually the cats restrain themselves quite well, sometimes under extreme provacation. Colin is probably quite safe unless he directly attacks the cat's person. In the past, that has been the threshhold.

Don

-

Pardon my bold.

That just might be a bit too specific, therefore limiting. I think the threshold would be closer to something like danger, revenge and possibly even fear.

Also, attack has already happened. Not to a treecat's person (well, possibly to some treecat), but to their own people and their two-legs. And the varmints haven't been dealt with, yet.[/quote]


Keep in mind the people who did the most damage to treecats are now pretty much on Darius.

There may be anger at the League and blame but I have the feeling the treecats are able to judge things for themselves. Nimitz did not attack most of the Peeps he came into contact with.

ldwechsler wrote:Keep in mind the people who did the most damage to treecats are now pretty much on Darius.

There may be anger at the League and blame but I have the feeling the treecats are able to judge things for themselves. Nimitz did not attack most of the Peeps he came into contact with.

With one defining difference. The Peeps didn't wipe out an entire clan of 'Cats.

The Malign made it personal!