SPOILER end of the MA

Patrols in Silesia were a critical testing ground and shared experience for officers and NCOs in the RMN. Pretty much every RMN O3 or E5 or above who didn't spend their entire career on DN/SDs, fortresses or shipyards had been there themselves and expected to go back.

So yeah, it sucked up a lot of the RMN. But as was shown during the war, this was largely because they had the ships to do this and it was politically/economically useful. When they needed units to fight the peeps the patrols pretty much stopped until the political pressure grew to be intolerable.

And it's also that which made the RMN the professional force it was. Unlike most other navies, which spent most of their existence at peace, spending more time as cops then warriors; an RMN professional (either enlisted or officer) could expect to be in combat at least once in their career (on average), and those stationed in Silesia for multiple tours could expect multiple combat encounters. This continual, low level conflict taught better lessons than any training could and seasoned even the political officers during peacetime.[/quote]


That brings up the point about how and where the Alignment is going to train the actual Alignment Navy. Sure, they have Mannheim as a way to run people though real world situations- what MSFD doesn't already get in real world experience and combat (which we have not been told about) with it's presumed need for the relativly large force it has, it and other SDFs in the RF can probably provide as the RF begins to deal with military problems from the spinning off of SL members and all those newly freed Protectorates.
Still, it is going to take time and the RF will have to have some way of intergrating (and cover stories) for a lot of people who are suddenly comming in to learn to be Navy officers and Enlisted in a warfighting Service.

Brigade XO wrote:Also a good place to keep up the ongoing training of officers and enlisted now that there isn't an actual war on....just like prior to the war with Haven. Killing garden varitety pirates takes skills in finding them and catching/killing them, you need to train people on how to do this and along with military skills and experience in general you need to excercise them regularly..

Most training can be done without real enemies. However, there's a very definite place for real, low-level combat. Pirates provide just such an enemy. It's the same as Honor getting sent to Silesia on her first cruise.

ywing14 wrote:
They still aren't a democracy.... You can't elect the Empress or Emperor of the SEM. You can't elect the Protector. You can't elect the House of lords or the Steadholders.... you can't be more or less a democracy... You are a democracy or you are not a democracy. They are not. As long as there are positions in the government important one in both Manticore example the Prime Minister has to be selected from a group of unelected individuals then it isn't a democracy.

By that definition neither Canada nor England are democracies. Canada has the senate which is not elected but appointed just like the House of Lords in the UK. Can't fire the queen either.

Weird Harold wrote:
Do you expect the RMMM to simply cease operations and the SKM abandon all trade outside of its own borders? Is it simply going to abrogate all of the mutual defense commitments it plans to make to stabilize human space while the SLN reorganizes?

Commerce protection where the need arises sure... commerce protection throughout human space outside the League hell no. MY point is that the GA should do everything possible to stabilize the situation in the short term, make key alliances with any newly independent core/shell systems and give everyone a basic level of defence.

The GA should stand between the core/shell and the Verge, guarantee the independence of the verge from interference by core/shell worlds and let them develop on their own. With verge systems having a basic level of security from piracy under their own control and being allowed to develop at their own pace free from interference keeps them firmly on the side of the GA in any future conflict.

Commerce protection is a never-ending mission. the parameters and intensity may change from time to time, but as long as there is commerce being conducted, there is a need for commerce protection. Mutual defense treaties with trading partners and basing/support agreements are all part of protecting Manticoran/GA commerce.

You are being vague with commerce protection so let me be specific here. The RMN has a duty to protect it's commerce, they should do so to the best of their abilities where there is a need.
They do not have the duty to protect commerce in the shell when most systems in the shell that gain independence have the abilities to build their own navies, in some cases very substantial navies.

Commerce protection where there is an surge of piracy that affects the SEM or the GA is a must, signing up for anti-piracy and commerce protection for potentially hundreds or more than 1,000 systems when a lot of those system can protect themselves and their commerce in the long run is not something the GA and the SEM should do.

They can only plan based on their best estimates extrapolating from what they know. Extrapolating a 800 kilo gorilla when all you have evidence for is a 1 kilo bobcat with rabies is militarily and financially irresponsible.

They have no conclusive evidence either way. The MA policy could have been to use force as a last resort, why use your ships and manpower to fight a war when you can get the League, the SEM and RoH to fight each other in a 3 way war?

The GA has just found that the MA has existed, and build up their plans for over 600 years, since their intelligence agencies missed that why should they be so confident that the MA has not build up a significant industrial power of their own backed up by a strong navy? Just because the MA has not used a large fleet in action against the GA doesn't mean that such a fleet doesn't exist. Assuming it doesn't exist just means that the end result could be a catastrophic defeat. Someone who just killed 60+ million GA citizens obviously does not have the best intentions when it comes to the GA assuming they are weak I just asking for trouble.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Do you expect the RMMM to simply cease operations and the SKM abandon all trade outside of its own borders? Is it simply going to abrogate all of the mutual defense commitments it plans to make to stabilize human space while the SLN reorganizes?

Commerce protection where the need arises sure... commerce protection throughout human space outside the League hell no. MY point is that the GA should do everything possible to stabilize the situation in the short term, make key alliances with any newly independent core/shell systems and give everyone a basic level of defence.

The GA should stand between the core/shell and the Verge, guarantee the independence of the verge from interference by core/shell worlds and let them develop on their own. With verge systems having a basic level of security from piracy under their own control and being allowed to develop at their own pace free from interference keeps them firmly on the side of the GA in any future conflict.

Commerce protection is a never-ending mission. the parameters and intensity may change from time to time, but as long as there is commerce being conducted, there is a need for commerce protection. Mutual defense treaties with trading partners and basing/support agreements are all part of protecting Manticoran/GA commerce.

You are being vague with commerce protection so let me be specific here. The RMN has a duty to protect it's commerce, they should do so to the best of their abilities where there is a need.
They do not have the duty to protect commerce in the shell when most systems in the shell that gain independence have the abilities to build their own navies, in some cases very substantial navies.

Commerce protection where there is an surge of piracy that affects the SEM or the GA is a must, signing up for anti-piracy and commerce protection for potentially hundreds or more than 1,000 systems when a lot of those system can protect themselves and their commerce in the long run is not something the GA and the SEM should do.

They can only plan based on their best estimates extrapolating from what they know. Extrapolating a 800 kilo gorilla when all you have evidence for is a 1 kilo bobcat with rabies is militarily and financially irresponsible.

They have no conclusive evidence either way. The MA policy could have been to use force as a last resort, why use your ships and manpower to fight a war when you can get the League, the SEM and RoH to fight each other in a 3 way war?

The GA has just found that the MA has existed, and build up their plans for over 600 years, since their intelligence agencies missed that why should they be so confident that the MA has not build up a significant industrial power of their own backed up by a strong navy? Just because the MA has not used a large fleet in action against the GA doesn't mean that such a fleet doesn't exist. Assuming it doesn't exist just means that the end result could be a catastrophic defeat. Someone who just killed 60+ million GA citizens obviously does not have the best intentions when it comes to the GA assuming they are weak I just asking for trouble.

^^^& What He said ^^^^

Q: ? do You call a "Gun-Free-Zone"
A: Target Practice

Nimitz

Weird Harold wrote:
The RMN won't be trying to protect 2,000 systems, they'll be providing protection for 20,000 RMMM ships -- or however many RMMM ships there happen to be in areas that require commerce protection.

And do you think those 20,000 ships are going to the same place? Or are they going to be dispatched to any number of systems to... well you know do commerce?

I don't get why you are so adamant for the RMN and the GA to take responsibility for commerce protection in places where there are systems/nations perfectly capable of doing it themselves with some help in the initial stages of the set up of their navies.

Why should the GA or the SEM shoulder the burden for everyone when the locals can do as good a job, if there is a problem above and beyond the abilities of the locals then by all means the RMN should send in some help but they should not take responsiblity for commerce protection in and around systems that have the industrial and economic muscle to provide commerce protection as well.

You can have 1 nations protecting hundreds of systems from pirates, or you can have hundreds of systems providing commerce and anti-piracy protection for their own little neighbourhood if I were a taxpayer in the SEM I know which one I would choose.

Presumably, they won't be required in MARS space, Andermani Space, RF space, reformed SL space, or any of the peripheral multi-system politi's space; any place with sufficient commerce protections and/or lack of pirates, privateers and commerce raiders preying on RMMM ships.

So why are you so against making as much of the rest of space as safe?

The RMN/Grand Fleet is clearly going to have more territory to patrol, but not anything like all of Human Space, or really not more than a small fraction of Human Space where pirates and privateers interact with GA ships.

Which won't require that much in terms of number then...right?

It's not like the GA is going to be the only government dealing with pirates and privateers.

But you seem to be against encouraging the affected governments from building a navy to protect their own area...

ywing14 wrote:

kzt wrote:There were ~60 systems in Silesia. Commerce protection and patrolling sucked up something like a quarter of the entire RMN. How much of the RMN will trying to patrol and provide commerce protection of 2000 systems suck up?

Where did you get the figure indicating it took up almost a quarter of the RMN?

Prior to the first war with Haven the RNM has 1621 vessels so you're saying they used roughly 400 ships to patrol those 60 star systems? I'm not saying you're wrong just wondering where that percentage came from because I haven't seen it or found it.

Yes, in 1905 they had 1600 warships but in 1850 they didn't have 1,600 warships and in 1790 they definitely did not have 1,600 warships.

ywing14 wrote:
I really agree with that especially since prior to Marsh they didn't have a base in that area. Everything would refit in Manticore. It also doesn't take long to get to the confederacy as they take the wormhole junction to Gregor A. Everyone who's doing rest or refit would be doing that in Manticore so those ships would just be assigned to home fleet. I find it unlikely there were any more than 100-150.

You need 3 times the number of ships for long term commerce protection then are actutally doing the protection at any one time. It would be 1/3 just came back from a yearlong deployment, 1/3 are on a year long deployment and 1/3 are getting ready for their own year long deployment. Anything less and it will likely burn out your crews and ships in the long term and Silesia was a long term effort.

You guys are overlooking a few things. Like the fact that not all of the ships in the RMN will be deployable to Silisia. You can eliminate all SD's and DN's. At any one time you could expect the RMN to deploy around 50-60 light warships at any one time. Likely one twelve ship squadron of CA's, one twelve ship squadron of CL's and two or three twelve ship DD squadrons along with a squadron of BC's on call for backup if things get to out of hand.

Manticore is under no obligation to protect anybody's commerce but its own and its allies.

However I can see some smaller systems with piracy problems coming to Manticore looking for help and agreeing to a fee based compensation structure. That might mean expanding the number of light units further, but if someone is helping pick p the tab, why not?

Don

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