SPOILER end of the MA

ywing14 wrote:My personal opinion is that if the Verge and Shell go independent then why would the want the SLN there? For hundreds of years the SLN under the guise of Frontier Security basically turned them into client stated and ramshackled their economies. Especially give some of the tactics they used would any newly independent world want the SLN in or around their space?

They don't. Why do you assume they do?

n7axw wrote:We know that a spider moves by using tractor beams to grab hyper, propelling it forward. I have been assuming that is in normal space. How does it move in hyper?

Don

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One assumes it tractors to the next higher level wall. Normal space larches to the Alpha wall, in alpha space it latches to the beta wall and so on...

ywing14 wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Essentially, around 1.5 ships/system, rotated back to Manticore after one t-year on station.

I really agree with that especially since prior to Marsh they didn't have a base in that area. Everything would refit in Manticore. It also doesn't take long to get to the confederacy as they take the wormhole junction to Gregor A. Everyone who's doing rest or refit would be doing that in Manticore so those ships would just be assigned to home fleet. I find it unlikely there were any more than 100-150.

Going to Silesia via Gregor A takes several weeks, even for military hyper-drives.

There probably were not more than 100-150 ships in Silesia at any given time, but there would be at least twice that assigned to Silesia; NOT assigned to Home Fleet while doing rest and refit. They would still belong to Silesia Command unless redirected to some other assignment.

We know that a typical Silesia tour was about a middie-cruise long (aka one t-year, more or less.) That means there has to be a constant stream of replacements going in and replaced units going out, and a pool of replacements doing work-ups and training new crew-members back home.

PeterZ wrote:

ywing14 wrote:My personal opinion is that if the Verge and Shell go independent then why would the want the SLN there? For hundreds of years the SLN under the guise of Frontier Security basically turned them into client stated and ramshackled their economies. Especially give some of the tactics they used would any newly independent world want the SLN in or around their space?

They don't. Why do you assume they do?

I don't think they do but I keep hearing people talk about the SLN suppressing piracy. I don't see that happening outside of their own space.

ywing14 wrote:My personal opinion is that if the Verge and Shell go independent then why would the want the SLN there? For hundreds of years the SLN under the guise of Frontier Security basically turned them into client stated and ramshackled their economies. Especially give some of the tactics they used would any newly independent world want the SLN in or around their space?

PeterZ wrote:They don't. Why do you assume they do?

ywing14 wrote:I don't think they do but I keep hearing people talk about the SLN suppressing piracy. I don't see that happening outside of their own space.

Yeah, given the transstellars, OFS and FF's history most Protectorates may take their chances with pirates. I wonder how the SL 2.0's navy will be treated by the GA? Right now the GA will treat the SLN like pirates outside the League members' space. What sort of commerce protection privileges will the new SLN have outside the New League in the future? I suspect that some system will prefer to deal with Sollies over the GA. Not many, but some. These will allow the SLN to patrol.

All those ex-Protectorates will have to arm up, no other option. I can see those nations approaching liberation like Poland after the Soviet Union fell, embracing their responsibilities with a passion.

PeterZ wrote:

ywing14 wrote:My personal opinion is that if the Verge and Shell go independent then why would the want the SLN there? For hundreds of years the SLN under the guise of Frontier Security basically turned them into client stated and ramshackled their economies. Especially give some of the tactics they used would any newly independent world want the SLN in or around their space?

PeterZ wrote:They don't. Why do you assume they do?

ywing14 wrote:I don't think they do but I keep hearing people talk about the SLN suppressing piracy. I don't see that happening outside of their own space.

Yeah, given the transstellars, OFS and FF's history most Protectorates may take their chances with pirates. I wonder how the SL 2.0's navy will be treated by the GA? Right now the GA will treat the SLN like pirates outside the League members' space. What sort of commerce protection privileges will the new SLN have outside the New League in the future? I suspect that some system will prefer to deal with Sollies over the GA. Not many, but some. These will allow the SLN to patrol.

All those ex-Protectorates will have to arm up, no other option. I can see those nations approaching liberation like Poland after the Soviet Union fell, embracing their responsibilities with a passion.

Agreed, I'm interested to see how the SLN 2.0's navy will play out as well. There was so much nepotism in the old one. I'm not sure how they could really fix it without starting from scratch. Despite how well Kingsford did at the end he was very similar to Parnell in my opinion. While capable he owed is position to birth and family connections.

ldwechsler wrote:First of all, Silesia was originally just a quadrant...no one actually ran it all. That's when piracy was high. There were planets protecting the pirates. Honor ran into that early in her career.

No, there was a central government. Not a good government, but there was a government. The assassination of Gertrude Krueger and her entire government in August 1772 pretty much put an end to serious attempts to reform the central government.

But remember the CA in "Let's Dance!"? It wasn't all hopelessly corrupt. Just mostly.

Weird Harold wrote:That's probably a fair estimate even without textev. (if any textev does exist, it would be in Honor's TOE at Marsh.)

It would not be 400 ships at any one time, but more like 100 on station, 100 working up or enroute, 100 in rest and refit, and 100 in periodic maintenance; give or take 40-50 ships in any category.

Essentially, around 1.5 ships/system, rotated back to Manticore after one t-year on station.

Patrols in Silesia were a critical testing ground and shared experience for officers and NCOs in the RMN. Pretty much every RMN O3 or E5 or above who didn't spend their entire career on DN/SDs, fortresses or shipyards had been there themselves and expected to go back.

So yeah, it sucked up a lot of the RMN. But as was shown during the war, this was largely because they had the ships to do this and it was politically/economically useful. When they needed units to fight the peeps the patrols pretty much stopped until the political pressure grew to be intolerable.

While Manticore has the terminus and we presume at least a nodal base at Gregor A which provides a direct link to Manticore through the Junction, they also have a what appear to be major facilities at Marsh. It was an independent system and was not included in the agreement with the Andermani to partition Silesia. It is still independent, and has been an allied system with Manticore

Marsh is just on the edge of the sphere on the map for Silesia but it is a lot closer to the rest of Silesia than the terminus at Gregor A and, thanks to Honor and a very good relationship with Marsh, Manticore has been using it as a base for quite a while. There are yard facilities there and while it probably isn't producing the most modern of the Manticore tech, it is probably able to do a lot of repair and rebuild work. Depending on what happened prior to Oyster Bay, if Manticore had upgraded it's facilities there, they could probably do at least routine maintence and some combat damage repair there with RMN personel and SEM civilian contractors.

Marsh hasn't been mentioned in the books as looking to join SEM but the relationship appears to be at least as good as that with Grayson. We didn't see it addressed in any of the conversations about the bad feelings and awful mess High Ridge made with other allied systems.
It's purely speculation but just possible that High Ridge and his cronies could have viewed March as a useful alternative and example of being able to maintain and extend the economic reach of Manticore without the territorial acquisition they complained about with Basilisk etc. It probably also represented an opportunity for High Ridge and friends to "invest" some place with a bit of arm-twisting but there is not yet any evidence of that. Certainly it would fit with the Janacek preference of going back to a cruiser/BC force and smaller ships for commerce protection. March already had the basing and yard facilities and fit the image of leased location with other benefits to support the commerce protection without the appearence of Colonial Aspirations.
So now Adm Sarnow has a working base in his area of responsibility (other than Gregor A) without the local political situations from the partitioning of Silesia with the Andermani where he can get work done on his ships in a friendly enviornment with skilled people familure with current SEM tech.

kzt wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:That's probably a fair estimate even without textev. (if any textev does exist, it would be in Honor's TOE at Marsh.)

It would not be 400 ships at any one time, but more like 100 on station, 100 working up or enroute, 100 in rest and refit, and 100 in periodic maintenance; give or take 40-50 ships in any category.

Essentially, around 1.5 ships/system, rotated back to Manticore after one t-year on station.

Patrols in Silesia were a critical testing ground and shared experience for officers and NCOs in the RMN. Pretty much every RMN O3 or E5 or above who didn't spend their entire career on DN/SDs, fortresses or shipyards had been there themselves and expected to go back.

So yeah, it sucked up a lot of the RMN. But as was shown during the war, this was largely because they had the ships to do this and it was politically/economically useful. When they needed units to fight the peeps the patrols pretty much stopped until the political pressure grew to be intolerable.

And it's also that which made the RMN the professional force it was. Unlike most other navies, which spent most of their existence at peace, spending more time as cops then warriors; an RMN professional (either enlisted or officer) could expect to be in combat at least once in their career (on average), and those stationed in Silesia for multiple tours could expect multiple combat encounters. This continual, low level conflict taught better lessons than any training could and seasoned even the political officers during peacetime.