"Modern" era Battleships - are they still obsolete?

Theemile wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

Marines? A Rolland DD doesnt need no stinking Marines when it has Abby Hearnes and Mateo.

Note: need 275 Abby and Mateo clones....

Or Abby-Mateo hybrids

Theemile wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:

Marines? A Rolland DD doesnt need no stinking Marines when it has Abby Hearnes and Mateo.

Note: need 275 Abby and Mateo clones....

Or Abby-Mateo hybrids[/quote]


Actually they do. Abby and Mateo may have led the charge but most of their followers were fighters.

Since RFC has noted there were problems with lack of Marines, not to mention people to clear decks after battle damage, I guess it's probably so.

Don't worry, as soon as Manpower hears about your need, they will be glad to address the issue and provide just the support you require.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

drothgery wrote:Though I can't really see the RMN building anything new that's hyper-capable without at least DDMs.

From HoS the Wolfhound class destroyers and Avalon class light cruisers are being built with launchers for the Lightweight Extended Range Missile rather than DDMs. Presumably the Kamerling class have the same launchers.

They were being built. Then Rolands proved themselves, the Yawata Strike happened, and non-Manticorans demonstrated a cruiser-range DDM. I don't think the RMN will build any more of them.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

drothgery wrote:Though I can't really see the RMN building anything new that's hyper-capable without at least DDMs.

From HoS the Wolfhound class destroyers and Avalon class light cruisers are being built with launchers for the Lightweight Extended Range Missile rather than DDMs. Presumably the Kamerling class have the same launchers.

They were being built. Then Rolands proved themselves, the Yawata Strike happened, and non-Manticorans demonstrated a cruiser-range DDM. I don't think the RMN will build any more of them.[/quote]


Building ships that are outdated is not only an exercise in futility but close to treasonous. Janacek focused on light ships which turned out to be a real error. That's why the Sag C's were called. They were really new but the pols were playing games.

The ships not only got bigger, giving them greater missile capacities but were also far more automated so instead of an old-time destroyer you got a ship with the size and power of an older light cruiser with a far smaller crew.

drothgery wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:From HoS the Wolfhound class destroyers and Avalon class light cruisers are being built with launchers for the Lightweight Extended Range Missile rather than DDMs. Presumably the Kamerling class have the same launchers.

They were being built. Then Rolands proved themselves, the Yawata Strike happened, and non-Manticorans demonstrated a cruiser-range DDM. I don't think the RMN will build any more of them.

The Wolfhounds, most likely, are a dead design, with only about 20 built during the Janacheck admin (another 19 were destroyed almost complete at Grendlesbane). The Rolands have roughly the same operational costs, a similar crew, and much more capabilities. No one is going to throw away the current ships, but given that there is no advantage of a Wolfhound over a Roland, other than cost and a handful or Gs, No one is going to advocate for more.

The Kammerlings were stopped at 48 copies - seeing that the RMN only built 75 Star Knights, 48 is a respectable # even if it is never restarted, and a powerful replacement for the 8 copies of the similar sized Broadswords.

The Avalons were built in truly stupendous numbers - nearly 200 by May 1921. In the next 9 months before Oyster Bay, another 100 could easily have been built.

The LERM ships are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Fireflair wrote:Don't worry, as soon as Manpower hears about your need, they will be glad to address the issue and provide just the support you require.

I was thinking that Abby and Mateo could supply the needed hybrids using natural methods. It could be the missing, second shower scene at the end of IN THE SERVICE OF THE SWORD. Because GAUNTLET is so badly damaged and so many crew killed and injured, Abby and Mateo get reassigned to share the snotty berth.

Theemile wrote:

Galactic Sapper wrote:From HoS the Wolfhound class destroyers and Avalon class light cruisers are being built with launchers for the Lightweight Extended Range Missile rather than DDMs. Presumably the Kamerling class have the same launchers.

They were being built. Then Rolands proved themselves, the Yawata Strike happened, and non-Manticorans demonstrated a cruiser-range DDM. I don't think the RMN will build any more of them.

The Wolfhounds, most likely, are a dead design, with only about 20 built during the Janacheck admin (another 19 were destroyed almost complete at Grendlesbane). The Rolands have roughly the same operational costs, a similar crew, and much more capabilities. No one is going to throw away the current ships, but given that there is no advantage of a Wolfhound over a Roland, other than cost and a handful or Gs, No one is going to advocate for more.

The Kammerlings were stopped at 48 copies - seeing that the RMN only built 75 Star Knights, 48 is a respectable # even if it is never restarted, and a powerful replacement for the 8 copies of the similar sized Broadswords.

The Avalons were built in truly stupendous numbers - nearly 200 by May 1921. In the next 9 months before Oyster Bay, another 100 could easily have been built.

The LERM ships are not going anywhere anytime soon.[/quote]

All this shows is that politics determines a lot of things just as it does today. Some weapons and weapon systems are built because it makes certain folks happy.

My guess is a lot of the ships that were not all that adequate were soon gone. Either sent out to safer zones like Silesia (no major capital ships as enemy) or simply not really rebuilt after damage. Also a good place to send officers who are OK but not really top-notch/

Different parts would make some repairs very difficult. And improvements that are really clear would rule the day.

Not easy to justify building ships that are clearly inferior.

i'm not sure inferior is the right word. less capable in regards to shear range and hitting power it is true but they are more flexilbe in other ways.

can wolfhounds and avalons do much against BC and up? if the BC don't have Cataphratcs then they can probably give a good account of themselves. we have no info on to whether the Mod G upgrades have been made available to the ERM or LERM. none of any kind, so all we can do is speculate and I find it hard to believe the RMN upon seeing the difference it made to the Mk 16 wouldn't have tried to do something similar for ships that can't fire DDMs. now how successful they were prior to wayland's destruction is one the many things that only RFC can say.

the Wolfhound and Avalon are modelled more on the classic threat environment, then the Roland and were never expected to fight anything more dangerous then a CA, and to spend most of their time in Silesa or similar running patrols and customs work which why they kept the Marine detachment.

so they can do the job they were built for, which would be patrol and anti pirate duty. in some respects they are a throwback general purpose design, and not a cut to the bone warfighter.


now moving forward it is probably best to get DDMs on every proper warship, but the RMN is now a peacetime navy and needs the general purpose designs more then the pure warfighters.

The rolands has 3 major flaws, lack of marines (fixable supposedly via ripping out the flag deck), limited ammo, and main battery is more fragile then anyone really likes.

make flight 2 rolands about 250K that leaves plenty of room for marines and extra ammo and some more armour. can't really do much else to fix the concerns over the missiles tubes until you go back to broadside mounts which are problematic on anything under 500K.

CL now about 500K basically a slightly smaller Sag C, maybe drop a couple of tubes for more ammo.

CA now about 1M, broadside of say 22 tubes, lots of space for marines, flag deck etc.

Dauntless wrote:i'm not sure inferior is the right word. less capable in regards to shear range and hitting power it is true but they are more flexilbe in other ways.

can wolfhounds and avalons do much against BC and up? if the BC don't have Cataphratcs then they can probably give a good account of themselves. we have no info on to whether the Mod G upgrades have been made available to the ERM or LERM. none of any kind, so all we can do is speculate and I find it hard to believe the RMN upon seeing the difference it made to the Mk 16 wouldn't have tried to do something similar for ships that can't fire DDMs. now how successful they were prior to wayland's destruction is one the many things that only RFC can say.

the Wolfhound and Avalon are modelled more on the classic threat environment, then the Roland and were never expected to fight anything more dangerous then a CA, and to spend most of their time in Silesa or similar running patrols and customs work which why they kept the Marine detachment.

so they can do the job they were built for, which would be patrol and anti pirate duty. in some respects they are a throwback general purpose design, and not a cut to the bone warfighter.


now moving forward it is probably best to get DDMs on every proper warship, but the RMN is now a peacetime navy and needs the general purpose designs more then the pure warfighters.

The rolands has 3 major flaws, lack of marines (fixable supposedly via ripping out the flag deck), limited ammo, and main battery is more fragile then anyone really likes.

make flight 2 rolands about 250K that leaves plenty of room for marines and extra ammo and some more armour. can't really do much else to fix the concerns over the missiles tubes until you go back to broadside mounts which are problematic on anything under 500K.

CL now about 500K basically a slightly smaller Sag C, maybe drop a couple of tubes for more ammo.

CA now about 1M, broadside of say 22 tubes, lots of space for marines, flag deck etc.

The Wolfhound was specifically inferior to the Roland and the Avalon designs. The Wolfhound was a modern DD which was designed to kick anyone else's DD's butts. (and CLs and some CAs in the process), with an extremely small crew. The Roland, optimized for DDMs with better sensors and firecontrol, was even better at the role, and was the clearly superior fighter, but both were simililarly built for the other light unit roles. The Avalon, followed the classic Lt cruiser track, with slightly deeper magazines, and a larger crew, making it the better ship for longer duration cruising, Boarding parties and customs actions, but with a weapons and sensor fit in line with the Wolfhound.

For the future, the Sag-C is ~485Ktons, so a 500 Kton Lt Cruiser will actually be larger than the Sag-C