(Spoilers) Future technological developments.

kzt wrote:If all they did was blow up the fabrication plants at Manticore and Sphinx it’s a win. The RHN has a huge number of ships reaching operational status. The next batch gets Gryphon.

Gryphon didn't have enough manufacturing capability to make it worth the lumps (and lost lives) to go in a second time. Oh darn, the Havenites would have only killed 90% of Manticore's manufacturing base rather than 100%. They'd still have forced a surrender.

My big question is why OB didn't target the deep space sensor arrays Manticore used to spot incoming hyper footprints. That alone would have made a second follow-up strike possible. The first attack wipes out the stations and shipyards; the second attack targeted on the repair and construction ships a couple months into the rebuilding process. With the sensor net down the spider ships could have rearmed and hypered back in basically wherever they wanted to, maybe a light day out to be out of range of the inner system sensors.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

kzt wrote:If all they did was blow up the fabrication plants at Manticore and Sphinx it’s a win. The RHN has a huge number of ships reaching operational status. The next batch gets Gryphon.

Gryphon didn't have enough manufacturing capability to make it worth the lumps (and lost lives) to go in a second time. Oh darn, the Havenites would have only killed 90% of Manticore's manufacturing base rather than 100%. They'd still have forced a surrender.

My big question is why OB didn't target the deep space sensor arrays Manticore used to spot incoming hyper footprints. That alone would have made a second follow-up strike possible. The first attack wipes out the stations and shipyards; the second attack targeted on the repair and construction ships a couple months into the rebuilding process. With the sensor net down the spider ships could have rearmed and hypered back in basically wherever they wanted to, maybe a light day out to be out of range of the inner system sensors.

The OB we got was rush job with what resources the MAlign had at hand because of Manticores technical superiority over the SLN. They went with the simplest plan that would accomplish their goal of crippling Manticore without compromising tactical and operational security. If they had gone after the sensor net, you can always plug holes in it with ships if need be plus it would have required a substantially larger operation than the MAlign could mount.

Going in a second time increases the risk of exposure plus gives Manticore a chance to get their hand on technology and hardware.
Also, it may have actually given the Mandarins pause which may have stabilized the diplomatic situation between Manticore and the SL.

Joat42 wrote:If they had gone after the sensor net, you can always plug holes in it with ships if need be plus it would have required a substantially larger operation than the MAlign could mount.

We're not really told one way or the other whether the long range sensor arrays are a network or a single installation. Given that we are told that the array is a thousand kilometers across there couldn't be more than a handful. We're also not told precisely where they're located. It could have been an angularity issue - missile pods on course to hit the primary targets just could hit the sensors from there. But if the arrays had been in range they seem to be awfully soft targets. Even tossing a missile or two their way would be a low risk extremely high reward proposition.

And there's absolutely no way they'd be able to fill that gap with ships. Shipboard sensor arrays can detect translations up to a couple light hours away - basically enough to see a translation at any point on the limit from anywhere inside the limit - but the big arrays can detect out to light months. Even a very generous estimate of shipboard sensor ranges would require millions of ships to cover the same volume.

kzt wrote:If all they did was blow up the fabrication plants at Manticore and Sphinx it’s a win. The RHN has a huge number of ships reaching operational status. The next batch gets Gryphon.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Gryphon didn't have enough manufacturing capability to make it worth the lumps (and lost lives) to go in a second time. Oh darn, the Havenites would have only killed 90% of Manticore's manufacturing base rather than 100%. They'd still have forced a surrender.

Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland. Laser head missiles do not attack sidewalls, going instead for an open throat or skirt. We do not know the exact geometry of the defensive sidewalls for the orbitals, but if done well only a very small portion of the enormous stations would be vulnerable to attack.

tlb wrote:Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland. Laser head missiles do not attack sidewalls, going instead for an open throat or skirt. We do not know the exact geometry of the defensive sidewalls for the orbitals, but if done well only a very small portion of the enormous stations would be vulnerable to attack.

Laser heads are programmed to avoid WEDGES, not sidewalls; they can penetrate sidewalls, just much reduced, dispersed, and bent by the gravity. When ships are fighting broadside to broadside, you often cannot get to the open aspects to strike.

And Bubble sidewalls do not have open aspects - trying to find them would be a waste of missiles.

Galactic Sapper wrote:

Joat42 wrote:If they had gone after the sensor net, you can always plug holes in it with ships if need be plus it would have required a substantially larger operation than the MAlign could mount.

We're not really told one way or the other whether the long range sensor arrays are a network or a single installation. Given that we are told that the array is a thousand kilometers across there couldn't be more than a handful. We're also not told precisely where they're located. It could have been an angularity issue - missile pods on course to hit the primary targets just could hit the sensors from there. But if the arrays had been in range they seem to be awfully soft targets. Even tossing a missile or two their way would be a low risk extremely high reward proposition.

And there's absolutely no way they'd be able to fill that gap with ships. Shipboard sensor arrays can detect translations up to a couple light hours away - basically enough to see a translation at any point on the limit from anywhere inside the limit - but the big arrays can detect out to light months. Even a very generous estimate of shipboard sensor ranges would require millions of ships to cover the same volume.

The clue is in "sensor arrays" whether there are one or many installations. Unless the MAlign manages to take out all the sensors installations you can use what's left to cover the gaps but probably have much less sensitivity plus you use the perimeter defense force to shore up the array where the coverage is weak. I'm not saying that ships can replace the array, I'm saying that they can plug some of the holes in coverage.

The discussion is moot anyway since the MAlign didn't have the resources to go after the arrays. Their goal was to wreck Manticores ship- and weapons-building capacity which means there where no point for the MAlign to do a follow up attack, especially since they already had manipulated the SLN to do just that.

At this point in time being exposed was something the MAlign worked very hard to avoid - and doing follow up attacks or going after targets that had no operational impact seems like a good recipe for possibly failing mission goals and increasing the risk of exposure.

tlb wrote:Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland. Laser head missiles do not attack sidewalls, going instead for an open throat or skirt. We do not know the exact geometry of the defensive sidewalls for the orbitals, but if done well only a very small portion of the enormous stations would be vulnerable to attack.

Theemile wrote:Laser heads are programmed to avoid WEDGES, not sidewalls; they can penetrate sidewalls, just much reduced, dispersed, and bent by the gravity. When ships are fighting broadside to broadside, you often cannot get to the open aspects to strike.

And Bubble sidewalls do not have open aspects - trying to find them would be a waste of missiles.

The stations we are discussing are extremely long and have branches (I believe), so a pure spherical sidewall could not cover one. Instead there has to some way for multiple sidewalls to combine into something that can protect the entire structure. That's why I said we do not know the exact geometry.

It may be that a laser head can penetrate a sidewall, but it is not efficient because the beams are reduced, dispersed, and bent: look at the scene in UH where the SLN attacks the RMN ships at the wormhole and gets many shots down the throat to no damage because of the bow wall (similar to a side wall). Even fighting broadside to broadside, you can always try for the open aspect by shooting ahead or behind.

Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland.

tlb wrote:Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland. Laser head missiles do not attack sidewalls, going instead for an open throat or skirt. We do not know the exact geometry of the defensive sidewalls for the orbitals, but if done well only a very small portion of the enormous stations would be vulnerable to attack.

Theemile wrote:Laser heads are programmed to avoid WEDGES, not sidewalls; they can penetrate sidewalls, just much reduced, dispersed, and bent by the gravity. When ships are fighting broadside to broadside, you often cannot get to the open aspects to strike.

And Bubble sidewalls do not have open aspects - trying to find them would be a waste of missiles.

The stations we are discussing are extremely long and have branches (I believe), so a pure spherical sidewall could not cover one. Instead there has to some way for multiple sidewalls to combine into something that can protect the entire structure. That's why I said we do not know the exact geometry.

It may be that a laser head can penetrate a sidewall, but it is not efficient because the beams are reduced, dispersed, and bent: look at the scene in UH where the SLN attacks the RMN ships at the wormhole and gets many shots down the throat to no damage because of the bow wall (similar to a side wall). Even fighting broadside to broadside, you can always try for the open aspect by shooting ahead or behind.

Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland.[/quote]

The real key point is that you can't do guesswork if you bring ships under stealth of ANY kind in these situations.

Imagine assuming that your ships are invisible, bringing in a nice hunk of your navy and having it wiped out completely. Not to mention taking the chance that someone who actually knows what planet you're from is captured alive and interrogated.

tlb wrote:Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland.

ldwechsler wrote:The real key point is that you can't do guesswork if you bring ships under stealth of ANY kind in these situations.

Imagine assuming that your ships are invisible, bringing in a nice hunk of your navy and having it wiped out completely. Not to mention taking the chance that someone who actually knows what planet you're from is captured alive and interrogated.

How is that a point about either sidewalls on space stations or evacuation plans? Oyster Bay was a bolt from the blue and not something that would be in anyone's defense plans.

Let's get back to the real problem: how could or why would Beowulf build three massive orbital stations that lacked both defenses and a viable evacuation plan? A blocking wall for them would help some (I realize they are not military targets, but there is a need to prevent collateral damage). In the actual situation from UH, the only effective response would have been an evacuation; but that was considered impossible. I understand that Beowulf had been at peace for centuries, but that is no excuse for a lack of planning.
What if they had been built in a modular fashion; such that in an emergency they could split into mobile pieces, each effectively a very large freighter or passenger liner? Then they would have had the protection of the wedge and only the pieces containing the cargo storerooms would have blown up.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:Why are we refighting the Battle of Manticore? Haven did not attack HMSS Hephaestus, Vulcan nor Weyland.

ldwechsler wrote:The real key point is that you can't do guesswork if you bring ships under stealth of ANY kind in these situations.

Imagine assuming that your ships are invisible, bringing in a nice hunk of your navy and having it wiped out completely. Not to mention taking the chance that someone who actually knows what planet you're from is captured alive and interrogated.

How is that a point about either sidewalls on space stations or evacuation plans? Oyster Bay was a bolt from the blue and not something that would be in anyone's defense plans.

Let's get back to the real problem: how could or why would Beowulf build three massive orbital stations that lacked both defenses and a viable evacuation plan? A blocking wall for them would help some (I realize they are not military targets, but there is a need to prevent collateral damage). In the actual situation from UH, the only effective response would have been an evacuation; but that was considered impossible. I understand that Beowulf had been at peace for centuries, but that is no excuse for a lack of planning.
What if they had been built in a modular fashion; such that in an emergency they could split into mobile pieces, each effectively a very large freighter or passenger liner? Then they would have had the protection of the wedge and only the pieces containing the cargo storerooms would have blown up.

I don't think making an entire 50 teraton space station a transformer is a good idea. Now having pre-determined modules that are emergency modules, with ray - shielding and wedges for evac, spread about the ship would be a good idea, even if they are never used.