How many naval personnel is there available in Talbott.

It did not sound to me that any of the systems in Silesia were being given any choice by either Manticore or The Aldermani depending on which empire got the systems in question. Essentily it was:
You are now part of the (insert name) Empire. You will obey the Laws, Rules & Regulations of the Empire. They will be enforced with exactly the same effect and deliberation as they are in the rest of the Empire. We and you will now proceed to clean house and you will get your political houses in order. No more corruption, graft, state sponsored piracy, fencing operations for pirated goods. The Empire customes rules and regulations are now in effect and you are NOW within the trade zone of the Empire, which means that there are NO MORE LOCAL CUSTOMS TAXES. External imports will be subject to the standared Empire tarrifs, penalties etc. Some system specific customes regulations will be applied as needed to address such things as health, weapons, export (or import) of protected, endangered or prescribed species and special needs as determined by Royal Govenor etc.
All warships and other military vessles of the former SC and/or individual systems are now attached to the RMN and will the personel of said ships (and SC and/or individuals systems fall under RMN Code of Justice, Conduct and Regulations. Persons not wishing to be part of the RMN may resign without prejudice (unless they are or can be charged for prior violations of SC or local systems laws and must stand trial for same).
All systems will operate under Protectorate Status (see relevent documents on Protectorate Status) until such time as it is determined that a system may apply for full membership in the Empire as pertains to limited local government under and consistent with Empire requirements. Persons already citizens of said individual systems are now citizens of the Empire with the rights and responsibilities of that citizenship including compliance with and subject to all laws of the Empire and such local laws as permitted under Empire Laws and rules [And if you decide you think you can get away with the Bad Old Ways under the SC government and genearly corrupt local governments & administraions, you are going to be either dead, in prision or genearly wish you had never been born].
PS, we think the Aldermani will just shoot or space you though you will really really not like screwing around with the Manticorian Governor or RMN.

Brigade XO wrote:It did not sound to me that any of the systems in Silesia were being given any choice by either Manticore or The Aldermani depending on which empire got the systems in question. Essentily it was:
You are now part of the (insert name) Empire. You will obey the Laws, Rules & Regulations of the Empire. They will be enforced with exactly the same effect and deliberation as they are in the rest of the Empire. We and you will now proceed to clean house and you will get your political houses in order. No more corruption, graft, state sponsored piracy, fencing operations for pirated goods. The Empire customes rules and regulations are now in effect and you are NOW within the trade zone of the Empire, which means that there are NO MORE LOCAL CUSTOMS TAXES. External imports will be subject to the standared Empire tarrifs, penalties etc. Some system specific customes regulations will be applied as needed to address such things as health, weapons, export (or import) of protected, endangered or prescribed species and special needs as determined by Royal Govenor etc.
All warships and other military vessles of the former SC and/or individual systems are now attached to the RMN and will the personel of said ships (and SC and/or individuals systems fall under RMN Code of Justice, Conduct and Regulations. Persons not wishing to be part of the RMN may resign without prejudice (unless they are or can be charged for prior violations of SC or local systems laws and must stand trial for same).
All systems will operate under Protectorate Status (see relevent documents on Protectorate Status) until such time as it is determined that a system may apply for full membership in the Empire as pertains to limited local government under and consistent with Empire requirements. Persons already citizens of said individual systems are now citizens of the Empire with the rights and responsibilities of that citizenship including compliance with and subject to all laws of the Empire and such local laws as permitted under Empire Laws and rules [And if you decide you think you can get away with the Bad Old Ways under the SC government and genearly corrupt local governments & administraions, you are going to be either dead, in prision or genearly wish you had never been born].
PS, we think the Aldermani will just shoot or space you though you will really really not like screwing around with the Manticorian Governor or RMN.

This pretty much summarizes my own impression of what's happened in Silesia, although it needs to be noted that some of the older political regimes were left in place because they had at least the appearance of having been elected by a democratic process, the qualification being that the illegal stuff must cease.

Talbot is much further along politically because they actually took the initiative in joining the Star Empire.

Also it needs to be said that whatever happens in either Talbot or Silesia on a transitional basis for defense, the RMN will be orchestrating it. System defense forces will become a thing of the past although until Manticore's industrial capacity is rebuilt that will be delayed.

I could see some of that industrial capacity being moved out to other member systems both for redundancy to assure that another Yawatta Strike doesn't mean wipeout the way the first one did and also as a way of building up the capability of the host system.

Don

-

Not disagreeing with any of the excellent analyses. However for the past 2-3 books Sarnow and Silesia are mentioned only in passing, unless there is another Anthology that I missed. I can see individual systems being treated as either Spindle or Basilisk But never like New Tuscany. They will have either local autonomy with an elected government, or a Provincial governor governing it until it can elect an acceptable planetary government. No New Tuscanies for Silesia.

SEM and The Anderman empire divided Siesia and any "independent" planets would probably be considered fair game by the Andermani especially if they reverted to their old ways.

Brigade XO wrote:It did not sound to me that any of the systems in Silesia were being given any choice by either Manticore or The Aldermani depending on which empire got the systems in question. Essentily it was:
You are now part of the (insert name) Empire. You will obey the Laws, Rules & Regulations of the Empire. They will be enforced with exactly the same effect and deliberation as they are in the rest of the Empire. We and you will now proceed to clean house and you will get your political houses in order. No more corruption, graft, state sponsored piracy, fencing operations for pirated goods. The Empire customes rules and regulations are now in effect and you are NOW within the trade zone of the Empire, which means that there are NO MORE LOCAL CUSTOMS TAXES. External imports will be subject to the standared Empire tarrifs, penalties etc. Some system specific customes regulations will be applied as needed to address such things as health, weapons, export (or import) of protected, endangered or prescribed species and special needs as determined by Royal Govenor etc.
All warships and other military vessles of the former SC and/or individual systems are now attached to the RMN and will the personel of said ships (and SC and/or individuals systems fall under RMN Code of Justice, Conduct and Regulations. Persons not wishing to be part of the RMN may resign without prejudice (unless they are or can be charged for prior violations of SC or local systems laws and must stand trial for same).
All systems will operate under Protectorate Status (see relevent documents on Protectorate Status) until such time as it is determined that a system may apply for full membership in the Empire as pertains to limited local government under and consistent with Empire requirements. Persons already citizens of said individual systems are now citizens of the Empire with the rights and responsibilities of that citizenship including compliance with and subject to all laws of the Empire and such local laws as permitted under Empire Laws and rules [And if you decide you think you can get away with the Bad Old Ways under the SC government and genearly corrupt local governments & administraions, you are going to be either dead, in prision or genearly wish you had never been born].
PS, we think the Aldermani will just shoot or space you though you will really really not like screwing around with the Manticorian Governor or RMN.

Yup, that is consistent with what little text has to say on the matter.

Now, let's take this forward. Silly system A decides to petition the SEM for considering its formal inclusion into the Empire as a member state. It wants to establish the Silesian Quadrant of the Star Empire of Manticore. It has ecidence proving that it meets the requirements set to be released from Protectorate status. Silly System A is indeed in suitable condition for entry into the Empire.

That system has just gotten a massive amount of influence in the governance of Silesia as the only local civilian Imperial polity entity. It has influence over the Imperial governor. It IS the entire Silesian Parliament for the Empire. That state of affairs won't last long as those systems close to meeting requirements will expedite their transitions.

All it takes is one system to gain Imperial recognition and the rest have to follow or face having their neighbors take advantage of them simply through having influence they do not. Once full Imperial members, those local systems have the right to SDFs. The RMN and IAN will watch them like hawks to make sure no one falls back into their wicked ways. Heck, the local civilian authorities will watch their neighbors to ensure the same thing. No one wants to kill their golden goose.

My guess is that the time for all this to manifest is within 5 years.

pappilon wrote:Not disagreeing with any of the excellent analyses. However for the past 2-3 books Sarnow and Silesia are mentioned only in passing, unless there is another Anthology that I missed. I can see individual systems being treated as either Spindle or Basilisk But never like New Tuscany. They will have either local autonomy with an elected government, or a Provincial governor governing it until it can elect an acceptable planetary government. No New Tuscanies for Silesia.

SEM and The Anderman empire divided Siesia and any "independent" planets would probably be considered fair game by the Andermani especially if they reverted to their old ways.

Agreed on Silensian Independent planets - the political writing is on the wall - you either align one way or another in that region, and telling Manticore you want to leave (once they allow you to do so), would be akin to starting the transition into the Andermani empire - Willingly or unwillingly.

Sidemore will always be in a special place, due to their current relationship to Manticore; they will be protected by Manticore as an independent state, and never forced to be annexed, though their application would not be refused. Should they wish to leave Manticorian graces though, The writing is on the wall and the Andermani will have their eyes firmly on them.

PeterZ wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:It did not sound to me that any of the systems in Silesia were being given any choice by either Manticore or The Aldermani depending on which empire got the systems in question. Essentily it was:
You are now part of the (insert name) Empire. You will obey the Laws, Rules & Regulations of the Empire. They will be enforced with exactly the same effect and deliberation as they are in the rest of the Empire. We and you will now proceed to clean house and you will get your political houses in order. No more corruption, graft, state sponsored piracy, fencing operations for pirated goods. The Empire customes rules and regulations are now in effect and you are NOW within the trade zone of the Empire, which means that there are NO MORE LOCAL CUSTOMS TAXES. External imports will be subject to the standared Empire tarrifs, penalties etc. Some system specific customes regulations will be applied as needed to address such things as health, weapons, export (or import) of protected, endangered or prescribed species and special needs as determined by Royal Govenor etc.
All warships and other military vessles of the former SC and/or individual systems are now attached to the RMN and will the personel of said ships (and SC and/or individuals systems fall under RMN Code of Justice, Conduct and Regulations. Persons not wishing to be part of the RMN may resign without prejudice (unless they are or can be charged for prior violations of SC or local systems laws and must stand trial for same).
All systems will operate under Protectorate Status (see relevent documents on Protectorate Status) until such time as it is determined that a system may apply for full membership in the Empire as pertains to limited local government under and consistent with Empire requirements. Persons already citizens of said individual systems are now citizens of the Empire with the rights and responsibilities of that citizenship including compliance with and subject to all laws of the Empire and such local laws as permitted under Empire Laws and rules [And if you decide you think you can get away with the Bad Old Ways under the SC government and genearly corrupt local governments & administraions, you are going to be either dead, in prision or genearly wish you had never been born].
PS, we think the Aldermani will just shoot or space you though you will really really not like screwing around with the Manticorian Governor or RMN.

Yup, that is consistent with what little text has to say on the matter.

Now, let's take this forward. Silly system A decides to petition the SEM for considering its formal inclusion into the Empire as a member state. It wants to establish the Silesian Quadrant of the Star Empire of Manticore. It has ecidence proving that it meets the requirements set to be released from Protectorate status. Silly System A is indeed in suitable condition for entry into the Empire.

That system has just gotten a massive amount of influence in the governance of Silesia as the only local civilian Imperial polity entity. It has influence over the Imperial governor. It IS the entire Silesian Parliament for the Empire. That state of affairs won't last long as those systems close to meeting requirements will expedite their transitions.

All it takes is one system to gain Imperial recognition and the rest have to follow or face having their neighbors take advantage of them simply through having influence they do not. Once full Imperial members, those local systems have the right to SDFs. The RMN and IAN will watch them like hawks to make sure no one falls back into their wicked ways. Heck, the local civilian authorities will watch their neighbors to ensure the same thing. No one wants to kill their golden goose.

My guess is that the time for all this to manifest is within 5 years.

Will they have the Rights to an independent SDF?

San Martin (for ex) does not have an SDF. David has already said (concerning Talbott) that the current SDFs would be (slowly) replaced by LACs and systems defense system as the SDF crews are evaluated and trained by the LAC wings. When asked about "Replacing" current Talbott SDF ships with either old legacy fleet hardware or captured SLN ships, David said Manticore was not creating a 2 tier naval strategy. The RMN was the navy for the entire Empire.

Theemile wrote:

pappilon wrote:Not disagreeing with any of the excellent analyses. However for the past 2-3 books Sarnow and Silesia are mentioned only in passing, unless there is another Anthology that I missed. I can see individual systems being treated as either Spindle or Basilisk But never like New Tuscany. They will have either local autonomy with an elected government, or a Provincial governor governing it until it can elect an acceptable planetary government. No New Tuscanies for Silesia.

SEM and The Anderman empire divided Siesia and any "independent" planets would probably be considered fair game by the Andermani especially if they reverted to their old ways.

Agreed on Silensian Independent planets - the political writing is on the wall - you either align one way or another in that region, and telling Manticore you want to leave (once they allow you to do so), would be akin to starting the transition into the Andermani empire - Willingly or unwillingly.

Sidemore will always be in a special place, due to their current relationship to Manticore; they will be protected by Manticore as an independent state, and never forced to be annexed, though their application would not be refused. Should they wish to leave Manticorian graces though, The writing is on the wall and the Andermani will have their eyes firmly on them.

Marsh is an interesting proposition.
It is part of the Manticoran Alliance and one suspects already a part of the Grand Alliance. It lies at the edge of the Andermani section of Silesia and close to the majority of the systems the SEM owns in Silesia. It would make an excellent capital for the Silesian Quadrant. Now, being a member of the Manticoran Alliance and a member of the Imperial Silesian Quadrant would put it in a special place in the Quadrant's hierarchy. Not a bad foundation to build the Quadrant upon.

I would hope the seek admission and begin forming the traditions of the Imperial Parliament in Silesia.

Theemile wrote:

Will they have the Rights to an independent SDF?

San Martin (for ex) does not have an SDF. David has already said (concerning Talbott) that the current SDFs would be (slowly) replaced by LACs and systems defense system as the SDF crews are evaluated and trained by the LAC wings. When asked about "Replacing" current Talbott SDF ships with either old legacy fleet hardware or captured SLN ships, David said Manticore was not creating a 2 tier naval strategy. The RMN was the navy for the entire Empire.

I don't envision a second tier navy. I mean that each system can pay for what local protections the federal government does not wish to invest in. Not saying the Empire will short a system. Just saying that a system like Rembrandt may well purchase and maintain a squadron of hyper capable ships much like some states in the US have a national guard. That aquadron would be subject to the RMN in very well defined ways, sure. Having local systems invest in these sorts of provisions is better than the wealthier systems using political influence to have Quadrant financed resources inordinately used for their benefit. Like the Navy patrolling certain areas more than others.

So all ships have to be approved by the BuShips. Personnel will be assigned by BuPers. Their duties will be assigned by the local system with the caveat that in emergencies, they can be placed under the command of the Quadrant Station Commander.

PeterZ wrote:
Marsh is an interesting proposition.
It is part of the Manticoran Alliance and one suspects already a part of the Grand Alliance. It lies at the edge of the Andermani section of Silesia and close to the majority of the systems the SEM owns in Silesia. It would make an excellent capital for the Silesian Quadrant. Now, being a member of the Manticoran Alliance and a member of the Imperial Silesian Quadrant would put it in a special place in the Quadrant's hierarchy. Not a bad foundation to build the Quadrant upon.

I would hope the seek admission and begin forming the traditions of the Imperial Parliament in Silesia.

Unfortunately, Marsh is not in a good position in relation to the rest of the Manty Silesian properties. If you draw a roughly 45 degree diagonal line through Silesia from the bottom left tot Top Right, Manticore got the Bottom Right. Sidemore is roughly on that diagonal, about 50 light years or so south of the southern Silesian border. As such, it is in "the lane" between the Andermani empire and it's Silesian Conquests. It's isolation was due to it being in the middle of a grav wave that ran perpendiculiar to the Anderman - Silesia travel corridor, and having an insignificant economy before Manticore built a fleet base and repair base there (after giving up after many years of searching for fleet basing inside Silesia).

Theemile wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Marsh is an interesting proposition.
It is part of the Manticoran Alliance and one suspects already a part of the Grand Alliance. It lies at the edge of the Andermani section of Silesia and close to the majority of the systems the SEM owns in Silesia. It would make an excellent capital for the Silesian Quadrant. Now, being a member of the Manticoran Alliance and a member of the Imperial Silesian Quadrant would put it in a special place in the Quadrant's hierarchy. Not a bad foundation to build the Quadrant upon.

I would hope the seek admission and begin forming the traditions of the Imperial Parliament in Silesia.

Unfortunately, Marsh is not in a good position in relation to the rest of the Manty Silesian properties. If you draw a roughly 45 degree diagonal line through Silesia from the bottom left tot Top Right, Manticore got the Bottom Right. Sidemore is roughly on that diagonal, about 50 light years or so south of the southern Silesian border. As such, it is in "the lane" between the Andermani empire and it's Silesian Conquests. It's isolation was due to it being in the middle of a grav wave that ran perpendiculiar to the Anderman - Silesia travel corridor, and having an insignificant economy before Manticore built a fleet base and repair base there (after giving up after many years of searching for fleet basing inside Silesia).

Yeah, Marsh is at the edge of the Manty possessions. Perhaps not a good place for the capitol, but still would be a good foundational polity to build the Silesian Quadrant around.