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Houdini/MA

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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:54 pm

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Seems to me, this is an expansion on the idea that
the senior Detweilers ought not to have been on Mesa.

HTM

Sigs wrote:Does anyone else find the need for Houdini a little lacking? I mean they had Darius for decades if not centuries why not move all of their sensitive research and development projects there? Having any research facility that deals with exclusively MA research on Mesa seems like you would be asking for trouble. If all of your sensitive leadership, construction, research and development and personnel were at Darius rather than Mesa would there be anything for the Intelligence team of Zilwicki and Cachet to find and bring back to shed light on the existence of the MA? It seems that for a long term conspiracy that seems to cover all of it's tracks they keep on screwing up on the most basic of things and improvising when improvisation is not needed.

Having to evacuate a lot of people who didn't need to be there in the first place seems to suggest that the MA is institutionally stupid or criminally arrogant.


They have been planning a war for literally centuries and at the end of centuries of preparation and planning it seems like they are collectively a slacker high school student who had 4 months to write an essay and is doing all the work the night before it's due.


They have planned for 600 years and only ended up with one system under direct MA control building for the MA. If something happens to the RF there is no Plan B because Darius is hidden but it is only one system with a limited population that deals with the construction of the MA's fleet.

What has the MA actually accomplished in the span of 600 years that would have required those 600 years? I mean everything they have set up and build could have been set up and build in 100 years... or maybe even 50.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Sigs   » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:20 pm

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Annachie wrote:The rushing of Houdini changed it from trying to stop people from looking, to making damn sure there was nothing to find.

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk



And what if one of the self destruct devices failed to go off? You end up with a bunch of people mildly irritated because their own side tried to murder them and will likely spill the beans the first chance they get. When you end up with such a complicated plan that has so many aspects to it there is a chance somewhere that the bad guys will slip up and fail, and with every failure there is more intelligence gained by the people you don't want to know you exist at all.


Ultimately though my point is that Houdini was absolutely unnecessary, they had 600 years to set up the plan, they had Darius for at least 50-100 years and most importantly they held the timetable. Waiting to pull off Houdini till the last minute is unnecessary especially considering they knew they will have to do it anyway at some point. So weather they spend the money 20 years before, raise no suspicions, keep your secret a secret and keep all your people alive or wait until the last minute, blow your cover, kill a bunch of your people and then destroy all the evidence which is evidence all by itself by the way is possibly the dumbest way to do things.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Sigs   » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:26 pm

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cthia wrote:I haven't purchased and read the current book yet.

Again, there's simply no way they can hide the fact that they've disappeared. You don't kill that many people and hang around the scene of the crime.

IMO, the deaths were not so much to mask the fact that they had disappeared (rather than to kill loose lips that can sink other ships). In Hollywood, that is called a professional "cleaning" to tie up loose ends. The MAlign were more interested in killing witnesses, so to speak. But witnesses to "who" and "what" and possibly even "where" they are. Not that many of the people killed knew the dirtiest of the dirt, but taken altogether collectively, a thread here and a thread there adds up and can be rather detrimental to a criminal's overall plans.

Again, the fact that they've disappeared will become quite obvious on its own soon enough. And they certainly couldn't think that anyone, even if it were the retarded League, would be dumb enough to think that the perpetrators of the killings would be psychotic enough to hang around the crime scene. They were trying to protect their "identity" and not the fact that they've flown the coop. You wouldn't kill that many people to accomplish the obvious.

Again, as in Hollywood, this was a cleaning. Hollywood uses "professional" cleaners to erase all evidence, even of the cleaning. Since this was a rush job...

IMO.


But the point is they had to get out anyway so why wait until they were compromised? I would say Houdini would be more expensive when it is done in a rush in terms of resources spend and attention drawn compared to doing it years before there was a chance of anything happening. They knew it had to be done, waiting till the end means they will be rushed and make mistakes or have to make sacrifices, doing it at their own leisure and over a decade would have been much better. Houdini would have been more effective 20 or 30 years before the events in the book
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Sigs   » Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:28 pm

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cthia wrote:Something has occurred to me. Besides Haven and Manticore, there should be lots of scorned Mesans out for revenge as well, also having been played the fool on the end of a string. The MAlign would have had to deal with them before departure to keep them from gladly volunteering information out of spite - after the fact.

In the aftermath of the disaster, that goes doubly for the scorn. There should have been many a native enemy made on Mesa who will search their diaries, their minds, their hearts and any seemingly incidental "innocent and innocuous" data to assist the GA.

But we haven't heard of any distressed Mesans as of yet???

They should feel really slighted — used, abused and handily discarded like so much unwanted trash.

And anybody they tried to kill in Houdini but failed will be more than willing to tell the GA everything they know.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:45 pm

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Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:Something has occurred to me. Besides Haven and Manticore, there should be lots of scorned Mesans out for revenge as well, also having been played the fool on the end of a string. The MAlign would have had to deal with them before departure to keep them from gladly volunteering information out of spite - after the fact.

In the aftermath of the disaster, that goes doubly for the scorn. There should have been many a native enemy made on Mesa who will search their diaries, their minds, their hearts and any seemingly incidental "innocent and innocuous" data to assist the GA.

But we haven't heard of any distressed Mesans as of yet???

They should feel really slighted — used, abused and handily discarded like so much unwanted trash.

And anybody they tried to kill in Houdini but failed will be more than willing to tell the GA everything they know.


Which won't all that much. Even the inner layers which know "something" is going on and the alignment is moving into it's end phase, don't know the details about what is really going on. Either they have been fed a line, or they just don't know the next bit of information they need.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Sigs   » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:08 am

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Theemile wrote:
Which won't all that much. Even the inner layers which know "something" is going on and the alignment is moving into it's end phase, don't know the details about what is really going on. Either they have been fed a line, or they just don't know the next bit of information they need.


Doesn't matter, the GA knows very little and so any scrap of information adds that much more to your knowledge base. They can capture 1,000 people from all levels of the MA onion and get bits and pieces but with every piece they get a bigger picture then they would have had before. And no matter how irrelevant or pointless a piece of information is it might be the key that points you in the right direction or makes sense of something else.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by SYED   » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:18 am

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One thing they will realise is that Mesa did not want anyone interested in the torch termini. So use that lead to unravel everything.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by kzt   » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:29 am

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SYED wrote:One thing they will realise is that Mesa did not want anyone interested in the torch termini. So use that lead to unravel everything.

Umm, how?

Where is it? Not all the MA's hyperspace physicists know about it, much less where it is.

Let me point out, once again, that the RMN captured an entire fleet of ships that had worked up a bolthole with their computers intact and after examining them in great detail and questioning the hundreds of thousands of prisoners they still have no clue where it is.

So no, not going to happen.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by Louis R   » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:01 pm

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Hmmm... let's see if I can do this with minimal spoilers...

Yes, I can see this in CoG, possibly not quite this clear-cut:

First, it looks like the Alignment's plans have been pushed forward by pretty much the 25-30 years Himself chopped out of the timeline - but he hasn't given them any more warning than anyone else was given. That means that at this point they've been scrambling madly for the last couple of years and things are rather badly out of sync. As a result it looks very much as if Houdini and Oyster Bay did get executed out of order. However...

I doubt that Houdini was ever part of the primary plan in the first place. If everything was going well, there would never have been any reason for them to disappear from Mesa, tracelessly or otherwise, because nobody would have been looking for them to start with. When Oyster Bay did strike - and it could as easily have been the League as Haven that became the primary target, depending on how that confrontation seemed to be proceeding in terms of the Plan - it would have appeared completely out of left field and disappeared right back there again. There's no reason why anybody would have paid any attention to Mesa in all the confusion until Albrecht started jumping up and down and shouting "over here! line up to welcome your new overlords!" Houdini would serve no purpose in that scenario and wouldn't be executed. So Houdini was a fall-back op for use if people started scratching their heads and wondering exact _how_ rotten things were in the State of Mesa. Publicly, and with a pretty slow build up, or privately, but in places thoroughly penetrated by the Alignment, with equally slow build up. Leaving plenty of time to activate Houdini if needed and run it, probably, on a 3-5 year time frame. Which, BTW, I'm not convinced would have avoided the kind of statistical blip that would tell a sufficiently suspicious investigator that _something_ had been going on. Of course, it's quite possible that the plan always called for the public chastisement of Mesa as a demonstration of virtue, in which case getting out of the line of fire would be advisable. But, in that case, Houdini could have been executed on the long time scale suggested by the OP.

And it probably wouldn't have been called Houdini in the first place. Houdini didn't disappear, as some people keep saying. He _escaped_. The small amount of textev we have on the nature of Houdini seems to suggest that that is what the Alignment had in mind: "Being completely cold-blooded about it, Zachariah understood the logic. The whole purpose of Houdini was to remove anyone from Mesa who could reveal anything about the onion’s inner layers and inner workings. They either left the planet by evacuation or they left it by shuffling off their mortal coil.

"There was no third alternative. Houdini had always been just a possibility, and one he’d never spent much time dwelling on. Now it was here. For real. As serious as the proverbial heart attack." [CoG ch21]

So, consider Houdini as actually executed. More precisely, consider the casualty list, or rather who was on it. There are 3 components, the essentials, the culls and the noise. Essential personnel were slated for evacuation because they were needed for the further prosecution of the Plan, suggesting that they also know enough that successful interrogation will produce more than enough info to stymie the Plan. And after the first couple of hundred drop dead during questioning people are going to figure out ways of doing it successfully. Even having them fall over after being rounded up leaves way too much information lying around, simply because it becomes possible to figure out who they were and what, in broad terms, they were doing. And that assumes that all of them _would_ fall over, which they probably wouldn't. In fact, it's clear that the ones who escaped the final cataclysm were left uncollected _because_ they had the New Model Medical Package and could be counted on to self-destruct. The culls, of course, were being culled because they weren't needed, at least not badly enough. But, like Lajos Irvine, they were far enough into the onion that they knew, or would realise, that it was an onion, with an at least partial understanding of the Plan. Again, interrogation provides hard data that can at the least lay bare the _existence_ of the plan. And in this case there would be a lot of them, because these people are likely pretty low on the list for the NMMP. If that data sets people who are currently laughing at the idea to taking a good hard look at their own security, the Alignment could find itself missing a lot of the reach needed for execution even if the opposition doesn't really understand what the plan is. So those two groups _had_ to disappear or die. The noise, of course, was simply intended to provide the statistical background for those disappearances and deaths, concealing exactly who they were. Not the fact of disappearances, but the exact numbers and identities. And this is the point where I suspect that the choice of Janice Marinescu is going to backfire. She wanted lots of noise - by my estimate she decided 10-50,000,000 was the minimum - and decided the best way to get it was to light the match on the Mesan powder keg. IOW, she decided to cull _Mesa_, and that, it seems, was just a bit too ambitious. It seems like that fuse sputtered out, for one thing, but there seem to have been enough good [for Mesan values of good, at least] people in the non-Alignment government that the scenario was starting to break down anyway. People completely beyond Marinescu's understanding.

As for why it was ever necessary: that's been answered, but let's hammer at it a bit more. Connections. Pure and simple connections. Not just Alignment command and control, although that is critical, but all the other connections you need to exploit for development. Connections that require a great deal of traffic to maintain. Engineering development can take place in splendid isolation - or at least with heavy security filters between it and sources of needed information, but research can't. Something that governments have learned the hard way every time they tried it, which is why so much is known about the principles, but not the practice, of building nuclear weapons. Somebody else is always going to have the crucial data or the critical insight, and your researchers need to be able to correspond with them if you expect them to exploit that to your benefit. And mysterious notes saying 'if you answer these questions and don't ask any, we'll put 10,000,000 in your account tomorrow' are going to raise a lot of eyebrows. People located on Mesa, while they may provoke some holding of noses, are going to be in the mainstream, able to interact, seek insights and offer their own. People who don't exist hiding on a planet that doesn't exist aren't going to be very effective in a dialog that requires existence - and reputation - of all participants.


cthia wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:1) If they can't hope to hide the fact they disappeared there's no reason to kill all those people to cover their trail. They would have been better served by simply loading the people onto ships, all that can be hidden is the destination.

2) So long as the GA knows they're out there they're going to keep looking. They have the depths of space to hide in but the GA isn't going to give up and a basically slave society isn't going to be nearly as innovative as a free one.

I haven't purchased and read the current book yet.

Again, there's simply no way they can hide the fact that they've disappeared. You don't kill that many people and hang around the scene of the crime.

IMO, the deaths were not so much to mask the fact that they had disappeared (rather than to kill loose lips that can sink other ships). In Hollywood, that is called a professional "cleaning" to tie up loose ends. The MAlign were more interested in killing witnesses, so to speak. But witnesses to "who" and "what" and possibly even "where" they are. Not that many of the people killed knew the dirtiest of the dirt, but taken altogether collectively, a thread here and a thread there adds up and can be rather detrimental to a criminal's overall plans.

Again, the fact that they've disappeared will become quite obvious on its own soon enough. And they certainly couldn't think that anyone, even if it were the retarded League, would be dumb enough to think that the perpetrators of the killings would be psychotic enough to hang around the crime scene. They were trying to protect their "identity" and not the fact that they've flown the coop. You wouldn't kill that many people to accomplish the obvious.

Again, as in Hollywood, this was a cleaning. Hollywood uses "professional" cleaners to erase all evidence, even of the cleaning. Since this was a rush job...

IMO.
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Re: Houdini/MA
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:20 pm

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Louis R wrote:Houdini didn't disappear, as some people keep saying. He _escaped_.

Your post is mahvelous. This is the only snag in it. I don't think anyone but myself is responsible for suggesting that he himself disappeared. So I'll take that blame all by myself. My bad. My apologies.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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