WAR ROOM

cthia wrote:I should finish my thoughts about Higgins. If something untoward and catastrophic were to happen in the Manty system while Higgins is CO and he survived it, he'd send his own career to the breakers. He wouldn't take a pulser shot to the head, IMO. But his career would, by his own hands.

Hmm. think I might have quoted you somewhere.

One thing they might do, since it only takes 30 minutes to get the wedge up from a cold start is put wedges up with any ghost footprint. That way nothing is going to come in and catch the fleet with wedges down and avoids having even some wedges up permanently.

WeirdlyWired wrote:One thing they might do, since it only takes 30 minutes to get the wedge up from a cold start is put wedges up with any ghost footprint. That way nothing is going to come in and catch the fleet with wedges down and avoids having even some wedges up permanently.

30 minutes is a long time if these things have a subs long range hitting power. Which I suspect they will. In submarine warfare, the subs got in and got out. They hit from as far a range as possible to ensure survivability. The TDC (torpedo targeting computer) allowed the US subs to do so. They'd target from 1000 yds.

Doesn't textev mention ghosts caused from other non corporeal sources?


I wouldn't recommend the MAlign to give the Manties a taste of their own medicine, but what Honor did to the Peeps during Operation Cutworm hypering in and out of systems for weeks to tire them out is interesting.

cthia wrote:

WeirdlyWired wrote:One thing they might do, since it only takes 30 minutes to get the wedge up from a cold start is put wedges up with any ghost footprint. That way nothing is going to come in and catch the fleet with wedges down and avoids having even some wedges up permanently.

30 minutes is a long time if these things have a subs long range hitting power. Which I suspect they will. In submarine warfare, the subs got in and got out. They hit from as far a range as possible to ensure survivability. The TDC (torpedo targeting computer) allowed the US subs to do so. They'd target from 1000 yds.

Doesn't textev mention ghosts caused from other non corporeal sources?


I wouldn't recommend the MAlign to give the Manties a taste of their own medicine, but what Honor did to the Peeps during Operation Cutworm hypering in and out of systems for weeks to tire them out is interesting.

Emergence sensor ghosts are possible naturally, but are rare enough that checking them out do not require many resources - resources which are board most of the time.

don't forget, spider drives are still limited to hyper emergence by the system's hyper limit like any other ship, which is usually 10-15 light minutes from a system's habitable planet. While in range for a graser torp, it will still take 10s of hours for a graser torp to cover that distance.

The graser torp supposedly has a loiter time measured in months, which would allow it to maneuver to the opposite side of a system to enact it's attack. On further analysis, I'm finding this slightly hard to believe and expect this range to be reigned in - the fusion reactor in the torp is considered to be the type which would be in a traditional LAC, which has a range limited in weeks, limited by it's hydrogen supply. In addition to size, it appears that these ship sized reactors are constantly running at a level which requires a fair amount of hydrogen independent of power consumption, which is what made them inefficient for LACs. (the original fusion powered Cimmetares had an endurance of just 96 hours, their bunkers were so limited to dedicate mass to other systems). I would expect the same limits in a GT, unless it has massive extra mass dedicated to it's fuel supply.

However, with the GT loiter time as currently understood, attacks could happen months after system insertion, and from any direction. Unfortunately, the GA does not know this currently, and could be vulnerable to this type of attack.

As myself and others have mentioned before, specialized spider ships are not needed for this type of attack; any freighter, when far enough away from defensive sensors, could kick out a GT and send it out to attack months later, when the freighter is a distant memory. The only limit to what a powered system like this could hit would be target discrimination (ie targeting the freighter next to the station which was the mission target), a concern which should be more than obviated by the level of the AI in the Torp. The MAlign already proved this attack capability with the insertion of the Ghost scoutships, and probably could have delivered more Torps using this method if they just used the freighters and torps, instead of the sharks as the launch platforms.

cthia wrote:]
30 minutes is a long time if these things have a subs long range hitting power. Which I suspect they will. In submarine warfare, the subs got in and got out. They hit from as far a range as possible to ensure survivability. The TDC (torpedo targeting computer) allowed the US subs to do so. They'd target from 1000 yds.

30 minutes is a long time if you pick up a spider ship in close. But the ghost signal is from hyper emergence, which is unlikely to be anywhere near one of Manticore's ships.
So in general the issue is more often when Theemile pointed out. It's a very long indeterminate delay at minimum hours, at maximum months. So the ships will usually have plenty of time to get their wedges up; but they can't plausibly all keep their wedges up indefinitely... too much wear plus they need to drop them sometimes to pull maintenance. ..

But either way an enemy you can't ever be reasonably sure isn't around is a nasty thing to deal with. Nerve wracking if nothing else.

Jonathan_S wrote:30 minutes is a long time if you pick up a spider ship in close. But the ghost signal is from hyper emergence, which is unlikely to be anywhere near one of Manticore's ships.
So in general the issue is more often when Theemile pointed out. It's a very long indeterminate delay at minimum hours, at maximum months. So the ships will usually have plenty of time to get their wedges up; but they can't plausibly all keep their wedges up indefinitely... too much wear plus they need to drop them sometimes to pull maintenance. ..

But either way an enemy you can't ever be reasonably sure isn't around is a nasty thing to deal with. Nerve wracking if nothing else.

I suspect you can, given the traffic density of Manticore, bounce a spider in tandem with a freighter, as the velocity and mass combine to produce the alpha signature. So if you cross at an unusually low velocity with an unusually high mass...

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:]
30 minutes is a long time if these things have a subs long range hitting power. Which I suspect they will. In submarine warfare, the subs got in and got out. They hit from as far a range as possible to ensure survivability. The TDC (torpedo targeting computer) allowed the US subs to do so. They'd target from 1000 yds.

30 minutes is a long time if you pick up a spider ship in close. But the ghost signal is from hyper emergence, which is unlikely to be anywhere near one of Manticore's ships.
So in general the issue is more often when Theemile pointed out. It's a very long indeterminate delay at minimum hours, at maximum months. So the ships will usually have plenty of time to get their wedges up; but they can't plausibly all keep their wedges up indefinitely... too much wear plus they need to drop them sometimes to pull maintenance. ..

But either way an enemy you can't ever be reasonably sure isn't around is a nasty thing to deal with. Nerve wracking if nothing else.

Yes.

But you have to respect what the enemy may decide to do. Not what you think he won't do. And 30 minutes is a long time before you can react, in case the Spider's mission is to include a launch on the planet. And if the Spider's missiles have a "tum te tum" circuit, 30 minutes to light off may mean millions of deaths. Especially if you're getting a virgin look at a new threat.


Getting your wedge up for your own protection is one thing, but protecting the planet is another ball of wax. The RMN has all the reason to assume the MAlign may launch at the planet.

In the worst case scenario where the ghost image has the hairs standing up on the back of your neck, that is.

No?

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:30 minutes is a long time if you pick up a spider ship in close. But the ghost signal is from hyper emergence, which is unlikely to be anywhere near one of Manticore's ships.
So in general the issue is more often when Theemile pointed out. It's a very long indeterminate delay at minimum hours, at maximum months. So the ships will usually have plenty of time to get their wedges up; but they can't plausibly all keep their wedges up indefinitely... too much wear plus they need to drop them sometimes to pull maintenance. ..

But either way an enemy you can't ever be reasonably sure isn't around is a nasty thing to deal with. Nerve wracking if nothing else.

Yes.

But you have to respect what the enemy may decide to do. Not what you think he won't do. And 30 minutes is a long time before you can react, in case the Spider's mission is to include a launch on the planet. And if the Spider's missiles have a "tum te tum" circuit, 30 minutes to light off may mean millions of deaths. Especially if you're getting a virgin look at a new threat.


Getting your wedge up for your own protection is one thing, but protecting the planet is another ball of wax. The RMN has all the reason to assume the MAlign may launch at the planet.

In the worst case scenario where the ghost image has the hairs standing up on the back of your neck, that is.

No?

I assumed you were using sensor ghost the same way the book did, its the signal caused by the spider ships slipping (slowely) out of hyper into n-space.
That places physical limits on what the MAlign can do - the hyper limit is more than 30 minutes time from any habitable planet (at least by an vaguely stealthy projectile). I'm on the road and can't conveniently calculate the ballistic attack time on a full up 3 drive MDM. But that's hardly a stealthy attack or one you necessarily need wedges to deal with..:

But if the spider ship sneaks into the system without anybody seeing the sensor ghost then your warning time is gone and you can't count on seeing anything before the graser torp hits you.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:30 minutes is a long time if you pick up a spider ship in close. But the ghost signal is from hyper emergence, which is unlikely to be anywhere near one of Manticore's ships.
So in general the issue is more often when Theemile pointed out. It's a very long indeterminate delay at minimum hours, at maximum months. So the ships will usually have plenty of time to get their wedges up; but they can't plausibly all keep their wedges up indefinitely... too much wear plus they need to drop them sometimes to pull maintenance. ..

But either way an enemy you can't ever be reasonably sure isn't around is a nasty thing to deal with. Nerve wracking if nothing else.

Yes.

But you have to respect what the enemy may decide to do. Not what you think he won't do. And 30 minutes is a long time before you can react, in case the Spider's mission is to include a launch on the planet. And if the Spider's missiles have a "tum te tum" circuit, 30 minutes to light off may mean millions of deaths. Especially if you're getting a virgin look at a new threat.


Getting your wedge up for your own protection is one thing, but protecting the planet is another ball of wax. The RMN has all the reason to assume the MAlign may launch at the planet.

In the worst case scenario where the ghost image has the hairs standing up on the back of your neck, that is.

No?

Jonathan_S wrote:I assumed you were using sensor ghost the same way the book did, its the signal caused by the spider ships slipping (slowely) out of hyper into n-space.
That places physical limits on what the MAlign can do - the hyper limit is more than 30 minutes time from any habitable planet (at least by an vaguely stealthy projectile). I'm on the road and can't conveniently calculate the ballistic attack time on a full up 3 drive MDM. But that's hardly a stealthy attack or one you necessarily need wedges to deal with..:

But if the spider ship sneaks into the system without anybody seeing the sensor ghost then your warning time is gone and you can't count on seeing anything before the graser torp hits you.

Thanks a mil. I suppose I should reread the "OB" attack. It doesn't seem like it was that long before the sensor ghost and the attack. Albeit elapsed time often gets distorted in the excitement of an attack.

I suppose I should also mention that I'm assuming that the missiles will be stealthy.

cthia wrote:Thanks a mil. I suppose I should reread the "OB" attack. It doesn't seem like it was that long before the sensor ghost and the attack. Albeit elapsed time often gets distorted in the excitement of an attack.

I suppose I should also mention that I'm assuming that the missiles will be stealthy.

There were literally months between the emergence ghost at > a light month out and the launching of the weapons, then more months before the missiles started their attack runs. The Sharks had spent months running up to .2c before launching their weapons and vacating the system- they never got closer to the system than a few light weeks from the hyper limit.

So much time elapsed between the beginning and end of the OB raid, that the emergence ghost and the attack runs were in the 2nd half of 2 different books.