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Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength

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Re: Wallers (Spoiler/WAGing)
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:22 am

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kzt wrote:Yes they did. The Germans, the French, and the UK all sent high ranking influential officers. All of whom first hand observed the effects of machine guns, barbed wire, trenches and grenades in the assault on trenches. Then a decade later these same armies recreated the entire Russo-Japanese war at the First Battle of Ypres, and everyone was shocked and appalled at the horrific effects of machine guns, barbed wire, trenches and nobody had hand grenades.


Because everybody basic idea was that they SHOULDN'T do that. :)

The key to the japanese ineffective attacks against Port-Arthur was the lack of siege artillery. Their initial supply of 11-inch Krupp siege howitzers was lost, when the russian cruisers intercepted the steamer which carried them to the continent. That's why the Japanese were forced to use such ineffective tactics.

But as soon as Japanese obtained new batch of 11-inch howitzers, they just blast through the russian fortifications.

So the general answer, that European armies obtained was "the proper artillery would quickly pounch through any fortress". And if you recall German actions in Belgium - they clearly based their strategy on the experience of Russo-Japanese War, using the 16-inch "Big Bertha"'s mortars to quickly destroy the opponent's fortifications.

The flaw in this conception was, that - based on the results of Port-Arhtur defense - everybody still considered such defenses as a part of some kind of locak fortress, NOT as part of field fortifications.

So agan, the reality is completely opposite of what you are talking about. The european armies learn a lot from russo-japanese war. Not everything was right, of course.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:26 am

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Nico wrote:
If that was indeed the case, then Beowulf would already be years ahead of the curve where other Solarian SDF's are concerned. And since the only circumstance in which Beowulf would do so would be the current scenario of Beowulf seceding from the League to stand with Manticore (and allies) against the League, well, then it doesn't really matter, does it?


Basically this means that Beowulf sabotaged the League's military efforts long before the hostilities started, by downplaying the whole data about "what happened on the other side of termini", instead of urging to take this at least partially seriously.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Eagleeye   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:39 am

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Dilandu wrote:
Nico wrote:
If that was indeed the case, then Beowulf would already be years ahead of the curve where other Solarian SDF's are concerned. And since the only circumstance in which Beowulf would do so would be the current scenario of Beowulf seceding from the League to stand with Manticore (and allies) against the League, well, then it doesn't really matter, does it?


Basically this means that Beowulf sabotaged the League's military efforts long before the hostilities started, by downplaying the whole data about "what happened on the other side of termini", instead of urging to take this at least partially seriously.


They did; but it shouldn't matter. Even if Buttercup was not the eye-opener it should've been - the press conference, where Theismann declared the existence of havenite SD(P) and multidrive-missiles should've done that. Because there's no reason at all, why (1) no first-rate solly news service should've attended that press-conference to cover it and (2) why someone like the RHN should acknowledge the existence of Podlayers and MDMs if they not need them to force Manticore (remember, at that time, that means High Ridge and his cronies) to finally start negotiating seriously. And anyone with at least the intelligence God gave a cockroach should have concluded, that the RMN and their allies already had the abovementioned tech and that Haven used that press conference to publicly level the playing field.

So, the SLN should've know about the existence of SD(P)s and MDMs for - what? 5-10 years or so, before Byng proved to be such a tactical genius.

But the only way to put new insights into a solarian (or at least a SLN/Mandarin) head ist to shoot a hole into it ...
Last edited by Eagleeye on Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Star Knight   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:59 am

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Also don’t forget the rather public political fight over naval budgets in the House of Lords during the same timeframe.
The debate had to cover Buttercup-era capabilities in reasonable detail.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:52 am

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Eagleeye wrote:[They did; but it shouldn't matter. Even if Buttercup was not the eye-opener it should've been - the press conference, where Theismann declared the existence of havenite SD(P) and multidrive-missiles should've done that. Because there's no reason at all, why (1) no first-rate solly news service should've attended that press-conference to cover it and (2) why someone like the RHN should acknowledge the existence of Podlayers and MDMs if they not need them to force Manticore (remember, at that time, that means High Ridge and his cronies) to finally start negotiating seriously. And anyone with at least the intelligence God gave a cockroach should have concluded, that the RMN and their allies already had the abovementioned tech and that Haven used that press conference to publicly level the playing field.

So, the SLN should've know about the existence of SD(P)s and MDMs for - what? 5-10 years or so, before Byng proved to be such a tactical genius.

But the only way to put new insights into a solarian (or at least a SLN/Mandarin) head ist to shoot a hole into it ...
Assuming the wiki timeline is accurate:
Buttercup kicked off in December of 1914 PD
The ceasefire request arrived March 31st 1915 PD
Thunderbolt kicked off sometime in 1920 PD (and Theismas press conference would have been less than a year prior)
Byng's attack was in Oct 1921 PD

If they'd paid attention to Buttercup they'd have known of SD(P)s for about 7 years. If they didn't wake up until the RHN announced they had them too then they'd have only known for, at most, 2 years.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by ChronicRder   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:22 am

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We've seen that Beowulf has a sizeable SDF. But, according to some other maps I've seen of the SL, Joshua also has a wormhole terminus. What kind of SDF would they have or is Beowulf's large SDF simply because its connected to the MWJ and gets a f-ton more traffic?
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Star Knight   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:37 am

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ChronicRder wrote:We've seen that Beowulf has a sizeable SDF. But, according to some other maps I've seen of the SL, Joshua also has a wormhole terminus. What kind of SDF would they have or is Beowulf's large SDF simply because its connected to the MWJ and gets a f-ton more traffic?

Beowulf has a large navy because they have working brains and chose not to ignore the war next door.
Both is not necessarily the case when it comes to Joshua.

BTW, any info on whether this System is part of the Judean League or even an member of the SL?
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Nico   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:54 am

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Well, that's the point I was making. Of all those League members whose SDF's include ships-of-the-line, only Beowulf had any inclination of what the Havenite wars meant for military tech. Everyone else suffers (suffered) from the general Solarian not-from-here syndrome. Everyone else deluded themselves that no 'neobarb' polity could possibly develop superior tech to that of the League, so they were confident that their current ships were top of the line.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by Rincewind   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:04 pm

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Nico wrote:Well, that's the point I was making. Of all those League members whose SDF's include ships-of-the-line, only Beowulf had any inclination of what the Havenite wars meant for military tech. Everyone else suffers (suffered) from the general Solarian not-from-here syndrome. Everyone else deluded themselves that no 'neobarb' polity could possibly develop superior tech to that of the League, so they were confident that their current ships were top of the line.


Actually, that is not necessarily true. From the text we know that several SDFs did send observers to both sides & they did report on the new weapons they had seen. Whilst their reports to the SLN might have been filed it does not mean that their reports to their own SDFs had been. Remember, in Shadow of Victory Michelle Henke specifically refers to several of the larger SDFs being more innovative than the SLN. Also, later on in the text RFC refers to the SLN being inferior to the SDFs. So it is possible that some of them have started their own R&D programmes.
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Re: Solarian League Naval Strenght versus SLN Strength
Post by George J. Smith   » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:22 pm

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IIRC Beowulf had a larger SDF with ships of the wall because of the possibility that they would have to defend their wormhole terminus against the Havenites if Manticore was conquered.

Beowulf also had access to Manticore tech blueprints so they could set up fabrication of Manticore tech if needed.

They didn't include any of the Manticore tech in their SDF ships so that Solly observers would not be able to report the tech to their superiors, (or steal the tech and sell it to the likes of the MA or Technodyne).
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