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Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents

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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by darrell   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:34 pm

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Silverwall wrote:
darrell wrote:Just one word: Illuminati
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

founded on May 1, 1776 then went underground when the catholic church outlawed them in 1784. here is an example of a secret society that has remained hidden for hundreds of years.

Start out telling your teenage kid that you are a genie and better than everyone else. after he/she braggs a couple of times and gets the C**P beat out of him/her a few times he/she will learn to keep his/her mouth shut.

Than when he is in his late 20's, introduce him/her into the outer layer of the onion. You are destined to be a leader of men, we are a secret group and will help you, you will need to help others once you become successful.

Once he/she becomes a successful leader, he/she is introduced to the next layer of the onion.


Sorry but nothing in the more reputable sources to suggest that the illuminati actually exist as a real thing outside the dates you mention. Trying to claim otherwise is laughable and is generally considered to be proof of belonging to the moster raving loony conspiricy brigade. Trying to use them as an example to support the Onion is laughable, again they are not secret, everyone knows about them. No serious scholar suggests that the illuminati are anything more than a particularly successful myth and darling of hollywood.

The short version is that there is no credible evidence of ANY conspiricy (government or otherwise) being totally invisible for any significant period of time. Human society just does not work that way. There are totally visible "secret societies" such as the Masons and governement secrets shuch as Area 52 and whatever the ministry of ungentelmany warfare did in WW2 but while the details are murky the existance of these organisations and the general organisation goals are never in doubt. For years the NSA was know as no such agency as they were not officially acknowledged but tht didn't mean that they were actually secret.


Lack of evidence does not prove that something doesn't exist. I am not aware of anything that formally disbanded the Illuminati.

to quote Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati
Illuminati—along with Freemasonry and other secret societies—were outlawed through edict, by the Bavarian ruler, Charles Theodore, with the encouragement of the Roman Catholic Church, in 1784, 1785, 1787 and 1790

if outlawing the Illuminati in 1784 caused it to disband, why did they need to outlaw it a second time in 1785, a third time in 1787, or a 4th time in 1790? :?: :?:

If freemasonry was also outlawed at the same time but still survives, why can't the Illuminati? One reason that Illuminati rumors persist is that no one can find proof that the Illuminati actually ceased to exist, so it is possible that it exists to this day.

See how successful the Illuminati are in keeping secrets? There is no evidence that the Illuminati have disbanded, and there is evidence that the Illuminati did exist well into the 19th century. :D

In the same way that there is no """credible""" evidence that the Illuminati exists there was no """credible""" evidence that the MAlign existed before McBride and herlander.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by Relax   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:16 pm

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The point is:
They are known.
They are not secret.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by Silverwall   » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:19 pm

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you are confusing specific secrets with keeping the society itself a secret. The mere fact they had to keep banning it proves that it was not "Secret" from the powers that were in the way the Mesan Alignment is claimed to be. As has been said before it is relatively easy to keep specific secrets for a shortish period of time. It is far harder to keep secret that SOMTHING is happening or some such group exists and is doing "Something". It is this second level of secrecy that the people here are objecting to.

BTW before anyone mentions the Manhattan project you might want to look at what information a reporter was able to put together at the time just be being a reporter.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/09/ ... ect-leaks/
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by kzt   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:17 am

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Silverwall wrote:BTW before anyone mentions the Manhattan project you might want to look at what information a reporter was able to put together at the time just be being a reporter.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/09/ ... ect-leaks/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/super-secret ... 15989.html

We lived in the next town and we knew lots of people who worked for Perkin-Elmer. Nobody had a clue they were building the cameras for the KH-9 sats.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by JohnRoth   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:22 am

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Silverwall wrote:you are confusing specific secrets with keeping the society itself a secret. The mere fact they had to keep banning it proves that it was not "Secret" from the powers that were in the way the Mesan Alignment is claimed to be. As has been said before it is relatively easy to keep specific secrets for a shortish period of time. It is far harder to keep secret that SOMTHING is happening or some such group exists and is doing "Something". It is this second level of secrecy that the people here are objecting to.


That "super" level of secrecy is something of a straw man. Consider that the guy in charge of Manpower's space station in Cauldron of Ghosts knows there's a "Mesan Alignment" that's devoted to genetic uplift, and he's wondering if he can get invited to join it. On Mesa, the crime boss, Jurgen Dusek, has figured out that there's something in the shadows that's pulling strings because the people who are supposed to be running the planet aren't quite up to the job. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the outer level of the Mesan Alignment wasn't an open secret, and generally considered to be a group of pretty harmless ideological kooks.

It's the onion that's the big secret, and people don't get invited to join the next level down until they've proved they can keep their mouths zipped.

From the outside, the big shield is the distraction of Manpower, Inc. and Mesa itself. With those in sight, who's going to be looking for a secret organization hiding in the shadows? The whole idea is absurd.

On Mesa, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there weren't a lot of genetic enhancements for sale to any of the full citizens. The Mesan Alphas would be a drop in the bucket, and with the amount of enhancements causing "static" in the gene pool, might be pretty close to invisible.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by Relax   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:46 am

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kzt wrote:
Silverwall wrote:BTW before anyone mentions the Manhattan project you might want to look at what information a reporter was able to put together at the time just be being a reporter.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/09/ ... ect-leaks/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/super-secret ... 15989.html

We lived in the next town and we knew lots of people who worked for Perkin-Elmer. Nobody had a clue they were building the cameras for the KH-9 sats.


Just means you did not revolve in the correct circles. Black projects are black. Been on a couple myself. Same goes for my father and brother. It is rather obvious what they are doing... If you happen to have an engineering mind that is, when looking at a company.

But you see, we are not talking about a company. We are talking about a nation. Everyone knew everyone else had spy satellites in the sky. Russians knew we built them and launched them. It was rather obvious with their polar orbits. No one wondered IF THEY EXISTED. The only question was WHAT their capabilities WERE.

The MALIGN supposedly has blocked BOTH its existence and its capabilities for generations from even scuttlebutt knowledge base.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by Silverwall   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:48 am

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kzt wrote:
Silverwall wrote:BTW before anyone mentions the Manhattan project you might want to look at what information a reporter was able to put together at the time just be being a reporter.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/09/ ... ect-leaks/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/super-secret ... 15989.html

We lived in the next town and we knew lots of people who worked for Perkin-Elmer. Nobody had a clue they were building the cameras for the KH-9 sats.


This is a specific, maybe no-one in the town knew the cameras were going into the KH-9s but I would be many knew they were making some sort of optical device and others outside the town knew of the existence of spy satellites.

At the very worst everyone knew that there was something supersecret going on there and I will eat my hat if the KGB didn't know exactly what was going on in there.

Also getting back to the original thread there was no requirements for the employees to be intergenerational as is the case in sleeper agent families.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by kzt   » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:08 am

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Silverwall wrote:This is a specific, maybe no-one in the town knew the cameras were going into the KH-9s but I would be many knew they were making some sort of optical device and others outside the town knew of the existence of spy satellites.

Well, everyone knew they worked for a company that made precision optics. That's what Perkin-Elmer did.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by jgnfld   » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:42 am

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kzt wrote:
Silverwall wrote:BTW before anyone mentions the Manhattan project you might want to look at what information a reporter was able to put together at the time just be being a reporter.
http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/09/ ... ect-leaks/

https://www.yahoo.com/news/super-secret ... 15989.html

We lived in the next town and we knew lots of people who worked for Perkin-Elmer. Nobody had a clue they were building the cameras for the KH-9 sats.


I was a subject in some perception experiments back in the early-to-mid 70s. It was pretty well known the department had profs who would disappear with tickets to DC every summer. Also, the "stimuli" were usually things like jeeps and trucks taken from directly overhead.

I didn't know anything officially but in retrospect I put the story together pretty accurately as to what was happening and the story I came up with involved spy satellites with pretty darned good capabilites.

In the late 70s it was reasonably well known that Perkins built big mirrors for the government. That was the reason they got the Hubble contract. It really was not a great leap to figure out what the mirrors could be used for especially as other aspects like aerial recovery of film canisters and orbital data were public knowledge. Or at least public knowledge to an Air Force brat who tended to focus on any info at all about aerospace stuff.
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Re: Genetic superhumans as sleeper agents
Post by Eyal   » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:39 am

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drinksmuchcoffee wrote:I understand that the Mesan Alignment is a centuries old-conspiracy, with sleeper agents embedded all over the human-explored galaxy.

Obviously their agents, who are members of the Alignment and at least partway into the Onion, have been genetically enhanced and are no longer "normals." Those genetic enhancements would very likely be detectable by modern medical technology -- they'd probably be detectable by our current medical technology.

My question is "why hasn't somebody noticed?" Presumably over the centuries more than one Alignment agent has been in an accident and I'd assume that the "regen" and "quick heal" technologies at least require a DNA sample to work their magic.

In Beowulf or Manticore you might make the argument that privacy rights might preclude the authorities for getting their hands on a DNA sample. But that certainly wouldn't apply, say, in the People's Republic of Haven or possibly in Silesia. On the other hand if a mysterious stranger dies in an air car accident the authorities might resort to DNA testing to locate the next of kin.

At the very least, now that they have a living member of the Alignment, why aren't they taking a DNA sample? That might help them start looking for sleeper agents. It might not, too, but it is a starting point.


What we've seen of genetic engineering in the Honorverse, at least so far, is largely quantitative rather than qualitative. We see humans engineered to be stronger, hardier, etc, but we don't see things like (taking Vorkosiganverse examples) the quaddies or Guppy. So it's not unlikely that any Alpha agent undergoing a gene scan would be dismissed as someone who just got genetically lucky (or more likely has some genies on the family tree somewhere this would be more likely in the older worlds, settled before genetic engineering got it's bad reputation, which are also where genetic scans would be more common). You'd need a bunch of them for someone to notice a pattern to raise suspicions.
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