Prolong and relationships

Daryl wrote:Regarding "An aside:
Is the prolong treatment reversible? If so, that could be a punishment in itself. Or an additional punishment."

As I said earlier someone who has really gone beyond the pale has given up the right to benefit from an advanced society. That includes everything from - protection from others by the state, to freedom from essential needs, up to ongoing medical treatment. My understanding is that prolong gives people the potential to live beyond two centuries. It wouldn't fix specific illnesses, or damage from being a pioneer on a primitive planet. Little things like broken bones, staph infections, or just being eaten would happen long before the two centuries.

My solution means that no civilised person has to live with the fact that they directly executed another sentient being in cold blood. End result is the same with a bit of panic and running built in.

Indeed. Understood.

However. I can conceive of a ... let's say conscientious planet, which agrees with your idea that they no longer have any rights. And where the government might insist keeping them alive for eons -- or as long as it might take to solicit remorse. Remorse that may lead to a repentance and a seeking of forgiveness for such heinous crimes. Governments that may feel that a life belongs to a much higher power and not theirs to take.

Is it proper punishment and respect to a family or families if a serial killer of babies gets summarily executed before he's had a chance to ponder and come face to face with his inner demons?

cthia wrote:Is it proper punishment and respect to a family or families if a serial killer of babies gets summarily executed before he's had a chance to ponder and come face to face with his inner demons?

It's been noted that the recidivism rate for people executed for their crimes is very low. And they rarely get out of prison due to things like general amnesties, hostage taking, armed raids on the prison or clever legal tricks.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:Is it proper punishment and respect to a family or families if a serial killer of babies gets summarily executed before he's had a chance to ponder and come face to face with his inner demons?

It's been noted that the recidivism rate for people executed for their crimes is very low. And they rarely get out of prison due to things like general amnesties, hostage taking, armed raids on the prison or clever legal tricks.

What is actually noted is that dead people commit few crimes. Regardless of guilt or innocence.

Personally, I consider packing a jury, using jailhouse 'confessions', and suppressing evidence examples of a "clever legal trick" as well.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:Is it proper punishment and respect to a family or families if a serial killer of babies gets summarily executed before he's had a chance to ponder and come face to face with his inner demons?

It's been noted that the recidivism rate for people executed for their crimes is very low. And they rarely get out of prison due to things like general amnesties, hostage taking, armed raids on the prison or clever legal tricks.

jgnfld wrote:What is actually noted is that dead people commit few crimes. Regardless of guilt or innocence.

Personally, I consider packing a jury, using jailhouse 'confessions', and suppressing evidence examples of a "clever legal trick" as well.

Indeed and indeed.

Yet, the time I spoke of -- given for remorse and repentance -- was not from the government, or even from the victims' families and loved ones. Though it would do those in question some measure of good to at least receive an apology and the knowledge that the guilty party has realized the true nature of their actions. After all, it is the sentiment behind "I hope you rot in hell thinking about what you have done."

But alas. The sentiment was to cover the breadth of those governments and individuals who may think it inhumane to deny someone the chance to realize the true nature of their actions and to repent thus affording a chance to be forgiven by God. And it also may allow one's own sense of religious responsibility of adequate counsel to the spiritually condemned.

May God forgive you because man never will.

If murder is unforgivable, then what is murder without remorse? I wouldn't want to face my maker under those circumstances at all. Too much hell to pay.

The death penalty was an option in EoH, but that's under Peep codes of military conduct. I seem to remember a reference to Grayson having capital punishment (too lazy to look it up right now) but I don't recall any mention of a death penalty in civilian Manticoran justice. If they don't have it, I suspect long sentences at hard labor are the norm. I've always thought that the best use for convicted criminals is public works of the tedious, back-breaking sort. 100 years digging drainage ditches on Gryphon would take the starch out of anyone.

dscott8 wrote:The death penalty was an option in EoH, but that's under Peep codes of military conduct. I seem to remember a reference to Grayson having capital punishment (too lazy to look it up right now) but I don't recall any mention of a death penalty in civilian Manticoran justice. If they don't have it, I suspect long sentences at hard labor are the norm. I've always thought that the best use for convicted criminals is public works of the tedious, back-breaking sort. 100 years digging drainage ditches on Gryphon would take the starch out of anyone.

Which is the quintessential definition of "corporal" punishment.

But I agree. Especially since some very suitable Honorverse versions of Riker's Island can be created -- which is notorious for abuse and neglect of prisoners. I'm surprised there aren't many more versions of Hades in almost uninhabitable regions of space. Like Hades, a real manly effective example of corporal punishment.

cthia wrote:

dscott8 wrote:The death penalty was an option in EoH, but that's under Peep codes of military conduct. I seem to remember a reference to Grayson having capital punishment (too lazy to look it up right now) but I don't recall any mention of a death penalty in civilian Manticoran justice. If they don't have it, I suspect long sentences at hard labor are the norm. I've always thought that the best use for convicted criminals is public works of the tedious, back-breaking sort. 100 years digging drainage ditches on Gryphon would take the starch out of anyone.

Which is the quintessential definition of "corporal" punishment.

But I agree. Especially since some very suitable Honorverse versions of Riker's Island can be created -- which is notorious for abuse and neglect of prisoners. I'm surprised there aren't many more versions of Hades in almost uninhabitable regions of space. Like Hades, a real manly effective example of corporal punishment.

You mistake my emphasis. Hades produced nothing of benefit to society. Prisoners set to public works are making a contribution to the general welfare. It's more about paying back than pain.

cthia wrote:

dscott8 wrote:The death penalty was an option in EoH, but that's under Peep codes of military conduct. I seem to remember a reference to Grayson having capital punishment (too lazy to look it up right now) but I don't recall any mention of a death penalty in civilian Manticoran justice. If they don't have it, I suspect long sentences at hard labor are the norm. I've always thought that the best use for convicted criminals is public works of the tedious, back-breaking sort. 100 years digging drainage ditches on Gryphon would take the starch out of anyone.

Which is the quintessential definition of "corporal" punishment.

But I agree. Especially since some very suitable Honorverse versions of Riker's Island can be created -- which is notorious for abuse and neglect of prisoners. I'm surprised there aren't many more versions of Hades in almost uninhabitable regions of space. Like Hades, a real manly effective example of corporal punishment.

dscott8 wrote:You mistake my emphasis. Hades produced nothing of benefit to society. Prisoners set to public works are making a contribution to the general welfare. It's more about paying back than pain.

No, I didn't misunderstand you. I just choose to lump it all under the umbrella of corporal punishment.

Although, work details and road crews are about both, paying back and pain. Also, rehabilitation through work detail is generally NOT available to the more serious fedoffs (federal offenders), because of the inherent danger of escape or... what someone has already mentioned, recidivism.

There is that dangerous segment of criminals that drift outside the possibility of giving back. And they are also outside the system trying to rehabilitate or extract any benefit from them.

Which is one of my pet peeves. Even serial criminals -- repeat offenders if you will -- rise above being rehabilitated. And constant reintroduction into society to facilitate recidivism... IMHO, becomes just as serious a crime in itself. The system makes it itself a guilty accomplice

Let's be real. Constantly releasing certain criminals to rape again -- over and over and over -- well, who exactly are the criminals? The repeat offenders or the system that repeats the offense of rererere-releasing them?