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Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:44 am

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I have been trying to recall some of the details of a friend in college who was a business major. He was working on a paper that studied different tax rates of various countries and tried to isolate tax obligation according to factors such as richness per country, total population and size of military. It was a herculean task as he put it.

I always imagined that the tax rate was directly proportional to the richness of the country, but his study considered population, military, size of middle class, etc. that would skew the findings.

I remember him mentioning a threshold population. In Manticore's case, would they have reached a threshold population being such a small system? Would their lucrative junction fees offset such a small population, relative?

Here is an interesting site showing current stats of Earth countries by comparison...
In which countries do high earners pay the most tax? And where do average earners pay the most?

Income tax has been a political hot potato for decades.
In 1966 The Beatles released their song Taxman as a protest against the 95% "supertax" rate introduced by Harold Wilson's Labour government, which the band had to pay. The top rate of tax in the UK is less than half that now but it's still a source of controversy.

In France, President Francois Hollande's election campaign promise to tax salaries above one million euros (£830,000) at 75% was - not surprisingly - met with howls of protest by the rich, who Hollande once said he "didn't like". His policy was struck down by the courts in 2012 who ruled it unconstitutional but he amended it so that the employer became liable to pay it.

To put this in context, the football club Paris Saint-Germain have to pay nearly 35m euros (£29m) to the government on star striker Zlatan Ibrahimovic's net annual salary of 11m euros.
30,000 euros... not bad for a day's work

Tax rates do vary dramatically depending on which country you live in. The accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) has crunched the numbers for the G20 nations.

More or Less: Behind the stats
Listen to More or Less on BBC Radio 4 and the World Service, or download the free podcast
Download the More or Less podcast
More stories from More or Less

For each country, they calculated how much a high earner on a salary of $400,000 (£240,000) in 2013, with a mortgage of $1.2m (£750,000), would have left after all income tax rates and social security contributions.
They assume this person is married with two children, one of them aged under six.

These are their findings. In each country, the wage earner takes home the following proportion of his or her salary.

⦁ Italy - 50.59% (takes home $202,360 out of $400,000 salary)
⦁ India - 54.90%
⦁ United Kingdom -57.28%
⦁ France - 58.10%
⦁ Canada -58.13%
⦁ Japan - 58.68%
⦁ Australia- 59.30%
⦁ United States - 60.45% (based on New York state tax)
⦁ Germany - 60.61%
⦁ South Africa - 61.78%
⦁ China - 62.05%
⦁ Argentina - 64.02%
⦁ Turkey - 64.64%
⦁ South Korea - 65.75%
⦁ Indonesia - 69.78%
⦁ Mexico -70.60%
⦁ Brazil - 73.32%
⦁ Russia - 87%
⦁ Saudi Arabia - 96.86% (so you take home $387,400 out of the $400,000 salary)

In most of these 19 rich countries (the 20th member is the EU) the take-home pay is between $230,000 - $280,000.
But one important thing to consider when comparing the top rate levels of tax is the threshold where the rate kicks in, because the differences are massive.

"In the UK, the 45% top rate of tax kicks in at an income level of around $250,000 (£151,000) compared to Italy where the top rate of 43% comes in at $125,000," says Ben Wilkins, a tax partner at PWC.

Outside the G20, the Danish government taxes workers at 60% on all earnings over $60,000.

Most of us can only dream of earning a salary that would attract the top rate of tax, so what about ordinary earners?

It is difficult to compare tax rates. Income tax is only one tax - most of us will pay other kinds of tax, like social security, and those with children might get some tax relief.

The statisticians at the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) have done some analysis of average salaries.

"At the top end of the distribution we have Belgium where single people pay 43% of earnings in income tax and social security contributions (or national insurance), followed by Germany with 39.9%," says Maurice Nettley, head of tax statistics at the OECD. "The lowest rates are paid in Chile at 7% and Mexico at 9.5%."

These tax rates apply to single people with no children, on an average salary for their country.
⦁ Belgium- 42.80%
⦁ Germany - 39.90%
⦁ Denmark - 38.90%
⦁ Hungary- 35%
⦁ Austria -34%
⦁ Greece - 25.4%
⦁ OECD Average - 25.10%
⦁ UK - 24.90%
⦁ USA - 22.70%
⦁ New Zealand - 16.40%
⦁ Israel - 15.50%
⦁ Korea - 13%
⦁ Mexico -9.50%
⦁ Chile - 7%

The following tax rates apply to married couples with two children.
⦁ Denmark - 34.8%
⦁ Austria - 31.9%
⦁ Belgium- 31.8%
⦁ Finland -29.4%
⦁ Netherlands - 28.7%
⦁ Greece 26.7%
⦁ UK - 24.9%
⦁ Germany - 21.3%
⦁ OECD average - 19.6%
⦁ USA - 10.4%
⦁ Korea - 10.2%
⦁ Slovak Republic - 10%
⦁ Mexico - 9.5%
⦁ Chile - 7%
⦁ Czech Republic - 5.6%

In Germany the rate drops from 39.9% to 21.3% because of generous child tax credits. Across the OECD, tax rates drop by an average of 5.5% for married couples with children. Greece is the only country where you pay more tax if you are married with children.
More on this subject

⦁ There are more Porsche Cayenne owners in Greece than taxpayers earning more than 50,000 euros - ⦁ true or false?
⦁ The lengths people go to ⦁ avoid paying tax
⦁ UK tax: Do you ⦁ give more than you get?
Of course, the point of paying taxes is that the government is supposed to provide services for that.
"In a lot of the European countries tax rates and social security contributions are high but the provision of benefits by the state tends to be very generous compared to countries in other parts of the world," says Nettley.
"If you fall ill or become unemployed the state will contribute and there are also generous pension arrangements."


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26327114

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by SWM   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:24 pm

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kzt wrote:
SWM wrote:It's a constitutional limitation. I don't think it would be that easy for the SL to change it.

Remember that growing your own wheat for your farm is interstate commerce and prohibiting people from owning military weapons is totally in keeping with the 2nd Amendment. So I'll bet the SL courts will approve the interpretation. They certainly should, as they are all appointed by the actual SL government and understand the stakes.

But it will probably take a while for this to reach the courts, as someone has to file a suit and have standing. Which means a sovereign system needs to formally file a suit. Then their will be the procedural motions. But in 10 years or so there will be a decision and in the meantime things need to be done.

Why would it even reach the courts? The Mandarins cannot simply declare one day "We are going to directly tax all citizens of the Solarian League." Something like that would have to go through the Legislature. Do you really think the League members are going to approve a tax law? Something that is going to cost them money? Especially when the Constitution was specifically written to prevent that because the League Members didn't want it?

A single veto would prevent this from ever being passed.
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:45 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
SWM wrote:It's a constitutional limitation. I don't think it would be that easy for the SL to change it.

Remember that growing your own wheat for your farm is interstate commerce and prohibiting people from owning military weapons is totally in keeping with the 2nd Amendment. So I'll bet the SL courts will approve the interpretation. They certainly should, as they are all appointed by the actual SL government and understand the stakes.

But it will probably take a while for this to reach the courts, as someone has to file a suit and have standing. Which means a sovereign system needs to formally file a suit. Then their will be the procedural motions. But in 10 years or so there will be a decision and in the meantime things need to be done.

SWM wrote:Why would it even reach the courts? The Mandarins cannot simply declare one day "We are going to directly tax all citizens of the Solarian League." Something like that would have to go through the Legislature. Do you really think the League members are going to approve a tax law? Something that is going to cost them money? Especially when the Constitution was specifically written to prevent that because the League Members didn't want it?

A single veto would prevent this from ever being passed.

But what of the cases, like now, of a constitutional crisis? The corrupt and immense League is handicapped in not being able to take a quick and decisive stance. Not much different than the same crisis faced by Grayson, which allowed Benjamin to seize the reins. The Mandarins can claim a constitutional crisis and imminent danger and a need to react quickly, for the sake of all. I'd be surprised if that sort of emergency contingency isn't hardwired into the Constitution.

Just like in Grayson's and Benjamin's case, it will withstand the storm surge. At least for the significant time-line. IMO.

.
Last edited by cthia on Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by kzt   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:54 pm

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There is the example of how the Nazi's got the enabling act passed. People who are jailed don't get to vote at the meetings held while they are in jail. You might even go so far as to arrange a 'Ballroom Terrorist Attack' on the cabal of delegates plotting against your legislation.
"There unfortunately were no survivors following the cowardly bombing. But we should mention that the neo-barbarians Manticore and Haven and the traitors of Beowulf are the main sponsors of these terrorists."
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by SWM   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:04 pm

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cthia wrote:But what of the cases, like now, of a constitutional crisis? The corrupt and immense League is handicapped in not being able to take a quick and decisive stance. Not much different than the same crisis faced by Grayson, which allowed Benjamin to seize the reins. The Mandarins can claim a constitutional crisis and imminent danger and a need to react quickly, for the sake of all. I'd be surprised if that sort of emergency contingency isn't hardwired into the Constitution.

Just like in Grayson's and Benjamin's case, it will withstand the storm surge. At least for the significant time-line. IMO.

.

The definition of a Constitutional crisis implies that the situation is one which the Constitution has not provided for properly.

In the case of the Mayhew Restoration, Benjamin was actually enforcing what the Grayson Constitution actually said, rather than trying to enact changes contrary to the Constitution.

Given how careful the original League founders were to deliberately limit the power of the League government and protect the power of the members, I would be very very surprised if there was anything in the Solarian League Constitution permitting the Mandarins to invoke supreme emergency powers. I can't rule it out, of course.
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:34 pm

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SWM wrote:
cthia wrote:But what of the cases, like now, of a constitutional crisis? The corrupt and immense League is handicapped in not being able to take a quick and decisive stance. Not much different than the same crisis faced by Grayson, which allowed Benjamin to seize the reins. The Mandarins can claim a constitutional crisis and imminent danger and a need to react quickly, for the sake of all. I'd be surprised if that sort of emergency contingency isn't hardwired into the Constitution.

Just like in Grayson's and Benjamin's case, it will withstand the storm surge. At least for the significant time-line. IMO.

.

The definition of a Constitutional crisis implies that the situation is one which the Constitution has not provided for properly.

In the case of the Mayhew Restoration, Benjamin was actually enforcing what the Grayson Constitution actually said, rather than trying to enact changes contrary to the Constitution.

Given how careful the original League founders were to deliberately limit the power of the League government and protect the power of the members, I would be very very surprised if there was anything in the Solarian League Constitution permitting the Mandarins to invoke supreme emergency powers. I can't rule it out, of course.


The Mandarins aren't even supposed to exist under the Solarian League Constitution as written.
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by SWM   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:15 pm

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I should note that I meant that I don't think the Solarian constitution would allow the government leaders to unilaterally declare emergency powers. I'm sure there are provisions for the legislature to grant emergency powers.
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by cthia   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:02 pm

cthia
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SWM wrote:I should note that I meant that I don't think the Solarian constitution would allow the government leaders to unilaterally declare emergency powers. I'm sure there are provisions for the legislature to grant emergency powers.

Exactly! You beat me to it.

In other words, by proxy if need be. Light a match under whichever hindpots need warming. The alternative, if sold like even the worst used car salesman, wouldn't be quite palatable.

The League needs a political hero right now. Someone, or ones, to step up to the plate. Or be served on it.

I personally don't think it's too late. Certainly if they somehow knew the Harrington plan. By the way, that's classified isn't it? Well placed spies not withstanding.

I'm not saying it won't take a hell of a State of the Union Address. But that's one Address every HD working would be tuned in for.

Damn, don't you just know how brilliantly RFC can render such a State of the Union Address?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:07 pm

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cthia wrote:
SWM wrote:I should note that I meant that I don't think the Solarian constitution would allow the government leaders to unilaterally declare emergency powers. I'm sure there are provisions for the legislature to grant emergency powers.

Exactly! You beat me to it.

In other words, by proxy if need be. Light a match under whichever hindpots need warming. The alternative, if sold like even the worst used car salesman, wouldn't be quite palatable.

The League needs a political hero right now. Someone, or ones, to step up to the plate. Or be served on it.

I personally don't think it's too late. Certainly if they somehow knew the Harrington plan. By the way, that's classified isn't it? Well placed spies not withstanding.

I'm not saying it won't take a hell of a State of the Union Address. But that's one Address every HD working would be tuned in for.

Damn, don't you just know how brilliantly RFC can render such a State of the Union Address?


Two major problems:

(1) It's been well-established that the current President of the Solarian League is an idiot. Or the Mandarins think he is, anyway.

(2) I'd be willing to put money on either him, or whoever is likely to replace him, being a Mesan agent anyway.

Edit: Money on it right now - I bet Shona Gyulay (the Prime Minister of the Solarian League) is a Mesan agent. These people do not miss a beat. The only reason they haven't completely inundated Manticore with their operatives is Manticore's only been seen as a threat for what, a couple decades?

The League's big problem is it has two forces out to destroy it - yes, they also hate each other, but for both of them their bigger immediate problem is the League. Manticore is going to be providing crushing blows in the deprival of income by the severing of the Protectorates and the closing of the Wormholes; Mesa is going to do everything it can to see that the League shatters wholesale.

With Mesa's tendrils in the Solarian media, the Solarian navy, and quite possibly everywhere else, you have too many people trying to pry the League apart at exactly the time the League needs to be centralizing.

Nope, it's never going to happen. The League is toast. It might well collapse specifically as a response to someone trying to introduce constitutional reform (including a reform of the tax system), actually.
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Re: Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:23 pm

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Crown Loyalist wrote:
Two major problems:

(1) It's been well-established that the current President of the Solarian League is an idiot. Or the Mandarins think he is, anyway.
Given the nature of his position, it would almost be a waste of whatever brains he has to be trying to do much with its actual power. So "may as well be an idiot" may work.

(2) I'd be willing to put money on either him, or whoever is likely to replace him, being a Mesan agent anyway.

Edit: Money on it right now - I bet Shona Gyulay (the Prime Minister of the Solarian League) is a Mesan agent. These people do not miss a beat. The only reason they haven't completely inundated Manticore with their operatives is Manticore's only been seen as a threat for what, a couple decades?
The Alignment also has a record for doing what they can with the people they find in place. Byng only needed to be put in place; Crandall barely needed more than that; Filareta and Hongbo got arm-twisting to do their jobs along Mesa's lines, but no more than necessary, etc. If they don't need someone in a particular position to make decisions specifically as they demand, and can influence those decisions with circumstances or an adviser, that's enough for them. When the League PM is nearly as much of a warm butt in a nice chair as the President, they don't need to risk that person knowing even the least amount anyone they can blackmail knows.
The League's big problem is it has two forces out to destroy it - yes, they also hate each other, but for both of them their bigger immediate problem is the League. Manticore is going to be providing crushing blows in the deprival of income by the severing of the Protectorates and the closing of the Wormholes; Mesa is going to do everything it can to see that the League shatters wholesale.
This needs emphasizing - Manticore and Haven aren't the Alignment's main targets: they're meant to be the Alignment's main tools to shatter the League. Sometimes they've needed some kicking to get back on that track, and now they know much too much for comfort and may be too strong, informed, capable and united to merely shatter the League, so they're up the target list some. But they're still needed to do that shattering; the Alignment just doesn't want them to come out of it as the nucleus of a new, stable order.
With Mesa's tendrils in the Solarian media, the Solarian navy, and quite possibly everywhere else, you have too many people trying to pry the League apart at exactly the time the League needs to be centralizing.

Nope, it's never going to happen. The League is toast. It might well collapse specifically as a response to someone trying to introduce constitutional reform (including a reform of the tax system), actually.

Yup. Kolokoltsov, at this point, may actually be willing to take stories of the Alignment seriously and use them as an out to get out from under Manticore's sights - if he thought he could make it work. But the Mandarins cannot afford to, and the League government and Constitution are too rickety to survive that. Think of it as an immense, stately ocean-going liner - made of papier-mache, that will fall suddenly to pieces if the winds or waves stir up or someone tries to turn it quickly.
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