Notes from Weber--SPOILER WARNING!!!

Erls wrote:3- The Maya sector (and Erewhon) become secret members of the GA. They don't sign on publicly in order to allow Maya and Erewhon to continue to build up their capacity in secrecy, but they pass along intel and receive some newer Manty tech further improve their capabilities.

Maya may have a reason for secrecy, since they're a part of the Solarian League and OFS, but Erewhon already has a mutual defense treaty with Haven, and now Haven has a military alliance with Manticore. So I doubt anyone who can think at all is going to have any allusions as to what *their* political and military intentions and actions might be.

As far as "newer tech" goes, I could see Haven (when theirs is updated) and Manticore giving some to Erewhon; indeed, it's quite possible that Erewhon "returns to the fold" as part of the GA. However, while I can see Manticore agreeing to continue the *existing* relationship vis a vis Erewhon and Maya, I don't really see them green lighting *newer* technology transfer to Maya *at this point*. Remember, Operation Sepoy is *secret*; there are bound to be "loyal" (ie, ones who stay bought) OFS and SLN personnel in Maya who might be in a position to pass some of that info on to the folks in Old Chicago. Once Sepoy kicks off and any suspected League sympathizers are weeded out of Maya, that might change.

Somtaaw wrote:small, deliverable by Sharks, and as far as we know Beowulf has nothing like the exquisitely sensitive scanner arrays that guard both Haven and Manticore, so a Shark squadron may not even be detected exiting hyper at a few light -weeks.

There's not much point in having a system defense fleet (as Beowulf does with the BSDF) without having sufficiently good detectors to allow you to get prepared to repulse an otherwise unexpected attack. Since Beowulf's level of technology is closer to that of Manticore's than probably any other SL member; I seriously doubt their sensor net isn't fairly sophisticated. Even if it wasn't at some point in the past, I suspect it got a fairly good upgrade *recently* after the Yawata strike. Remember, these folks have opposed Mesa for generations; and while they may have never *expected* an outright attack, prudent planning covers your opponent's contingencies. Surely they would have tried to make it difficult for Mesa to insert spies and potential saboteurs into the system via small, stealthed ships, and that would tend to require very sensitive sensor arrays.

I could see the Sollies *in general* ignoring such precautions, but the Beowulfer's seem to be a bit more alert.

Brigade XO wrote:Perhaps comething that goes after bloodlines of various people the Alignment has really hated on Beowulf? Just twisty-odd enough for the Alignment so it could still make Beowulf suffer and have to concentrate only on sollving the weapon rather than anything else, probaby being "forced" to folow the precepts of Dr. Detweiler to "cure" the plague?

They'd have to be really, really careful about that. Remember, the folks who *founded* Mesa came from Beowulf. Family groupings probably split - some staying, some leaving. Even with generations gone by, and genetic "tinkering"; there's probably still some significant genetic simularities between Beowulfer's and Mesans.

I suppose they *could* have added some genetic "marker" to their own bloodlines that some viral nanotech could sense as a "turn off" switch; but that would presuppose that they actually *did* manage to create a virus that couldn't mutate over time.

kzt wrote:

Bill Woods wrote: [Blink.] You were expecting something on the order of 10 Billion? That would be more or less the entire population of the system! Even 10M is more than the Yawata Strike.

Hey, I'm really sorry about hitting the planet with those missiles... Totally an accident. Really.

What if it's not a missile strike. What if the viral assassination tech mutates and starts to jump bodies with some pre-programmed action. Or what if Mesa seeds the virus into Beowolf's water supply or something.

OrlandoNative wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:small, deliverable by Sharks, and as far as we know Beowulf has nothing like the exquisitely sensitive scanner arrays that guard both Haven and Manticore, so a Shark squadron may not even be detected exiting hyper at a few light -weeks.

There's not much point in having a system defense fleet (as Beowulf does with the BSDF) without having sufficiently good detectors to allow you to get prepared to repulse an otherwise unexpected attack. Since Beowulf's level of technology is closer to that of Manticore's than probably any other SL member; I seriously doubt their sensor net isn't fairly sophisticated. Even if it wasn't at some point in the past, I suspect it got a fairly good upgrade *recently* after the Yawata strike. Remember, these folks have opposed Mesa for generations; and while they may have never *expected* an outright attack, prudent planning covers your opponent's contingencies. Surely they would have tried to make it difficult for Mesa to insert spies and potential saboteurs into the system via small, stealthed ships, and that would tend to require very sensitive sensor arrays.

I could see the Sollies *in general* ignoring such precautions, but the Beowulfer's seem to be a bit more alert.

Never said Beowulf doesn't have any scanner arrays, just that they're unlikely to have the same scale as Manticore or Haven. Keep in mind that most systems out in the Silesia have scanners that detect to at least the hyper-limit. So did most of the Talbott Cluster before annexation.

Manticore and Haven were actively fighting each other for multi-decades, so they'd have spent lavishly to ensure no fleet of wallers could sneak in. I believe when the MAligns ships did it, we got a reference to Manticore's scanners having a light-decadeish in range as well as their measurements (kilometers on a side)

Beowulf is part of the League, so until now it didn't really need something that Manticore or Haven did. But it's going to be slightly better than that found in Silesia or Talbott. So probably a light-week beyond the hyperlimit, maybe a light-month out.

Haven couldn't manage to get an Argus net into Yeltsin prior to the First War, but the MAlign got their Sharks into both Manticore and Yeltsin easily, despite the wars. I think the MAlign could insert a couple Leonard Detweilers (the full sized, operational Sharks) into Beowulf with its less sensitive arrays.

And once they've exited hyper, all they need is a few minutes to clear the range and they'd be home free to watch, and then time a strike to hit Beowulf, right about the time an SLN task force should be exchanging fire with Beowulf SDF. Kinetic impacts, or bio-weapons, either way nobody would see it coming.

OrlandoNative wrote:Tsang may have gone to Mars to debrief, but it's not certain all "her" ships went with her. It probably depends on where they came from to begin with. Remember, this was 100 SD's. And large groups of SD's aren't a natural occurrence in the SLN. They probably came from various locations, assembled near Beowulf, and, when repulsed, most likely went back to where they originated from. There'd be no reason to keep them all together for any length of time afterwards without a specific target.

Actually, as I recall, their "beef" was that he hadn't brought her to Old Terra. Rajani went to Mars to (1) escape from the Mandarin's for a while and (2) to allegedly consult with Logistics about the mothballed SD's; since Logistics HQ was there. Allusions to Tsang were that she wasn't in the Sol System at all. If she was at Mars, I suspect that no matter what Rajani might or might not want, they'd have at least set up a secure comm session with her and asked her the couple of questions they were really interested in getting answers to. After all, the lightspeed delay may make animated *conversation* difficult, but basic question and answer could certainly be done. And these people can *travel*. A trip to Mars and back probably only takes a day under impeller drive.

First, there is no reason to believe that Tsang's fleet didn't originate from Mars. That fleet base is huge and has both lots of active wallers and a large number of mothballed SDs. She could have easily assembled her fleet there.

Secondly, gathering large numbers of SDs was not what was unusual. What was unusual was having large groups of SDs conducting exercises out away from the core, toward Talbot in Crandal's case and the Tasmanian sector for Filereta.

Don

OrlandoNative wrote:

Erls wrote:3- The Maya sector (and Erewhon) become secret members of the GA. They don't sign on publicly in order to allow Maya and Erewhon to continue to build up their capacity in secrecy, but they pass along intel and receive some newer Manty tech further improve their capabilities.

Maya may have a reason for secrecy, since they're a part of the Solarian League and OFS, but Erewhon already has a mutual defense treaty with Haven, and now Haven has a military alliance with Manticore. So I doubt anyone who can think at all is going to have any allusions as to what *their* political and military intentions and actions might be.

As far as "newer tech" goes, I could see Haven (when theirs is updated) and Manticore giving some to Erewhon; indeed, it's quite possible that Erewhon "returns to the fold" as part of the GA. However, while I can see Manticore agreeing to continue the *existing* relationship vis a vis Erewhon and Maya, I don't really see them green lighting *newer* technology transfer to Maya *at this point*. Remember, Operation Sepoy is *secret*; there are bound to be "loyal" (ie, ones who stay bought) OFS and SLN personnel in Maya who might be in a position to pass some of that info on to the folks in Old Chicago. Once Sepoy kicks off and any suspected League sympathizers are weeded out of Maya, that might change.

See, my thought regarding Erewhon: With Maya selling their 'investments' in Erewhon as a way to bring Erewhon closer to the Solarian League, Erewhon openly declaring itself as a member of the GA might actually be enough for even the OFS to take notice and ask questions. If, instead, Erewhon publicly cancels its MDP with Haven and privately signs on to the GA, then both Maya and Erewhon go on being ignored by the Mandarins and the Sollies even longer. In fact, Maya could increase its 'investment' in Erewhon and simply say "So far, we've gotten Erewhon away from Haven. With even more money, we can slowly bring them closer to us" type of thing.

Regarding the old RMN tech part.. I phrased that wrong. What I should of said was the GA might be willing to provide input regarding ship design on what would be easily upgraded. EG, "Give yourself and extra 3m of length on your missile tubes, you might want that someday." Or, "Why not put your CM tubes in these areas, as it might help you down the road." Once Maya comes out in the open, and if the GA is satisfied that they are in fact trustworthy and worthy allies, the refit process would be greatly simplified to bring Maya ships up to current tech levels in some key aspects. If Maya turns out not to be trustworthy, all you really gave them was the dimensions your missiles needed or the optimal distance between weapons platforms. That alone wouldn't tell some all that much.

If I was running the SLN, I'd hit Erewhon. It is probably the most accessible and least well defended system that has access to much of the RMN tech.

kzt wrote:If I was running the SLN, I'd hit Erewhon. It is probably the most accessible and least well defended system that has access to much of the RMN tech.

That's a good point, and the Mandarins never care about anything except "Core World" thoughts, people in the Verge and Shell just don't matter to them.

So Maya peddling shipyards and such, to tie strings to Erewhon, the Mandarins would simply shrug it off. Maya might be powerful for a non-Core sector, but it isn't powerful enough for them to care if they piss of Barregos.

The whole public logic would have been something along the lines of. "Who cares what the Erewhonese thinks. Everybody knows they were with Manticore, after they left us. Then they left Manticore to join up with Haven. Haven actively shot at our ships, that made Erewhon a legitimate military target."
Unspoken "and they have both sides near latest technology for us to plunder and steal so we don't keep getting massacred."

And then, if successful attack, most likely Sepoy gets the lid blown off, because what Barregos reported he was buying/investing in, would be revealed by the wrecked ships and anything still in building slips.

Somtaaw wrote:

kzt wrote:If I was running the SLN, I'd hit Erewhon. It is probably the most accessible and least well defended system that has access to much of the RMN tech.

That's a good point, and the Mandarins never care about anything except "Core World" thoughts, people in the Verge and Shell just don't matter to them.

So Maya peddling shipyards and such, to tie strings to Erewhon, the Mandarins would simply shrug it off. Maya might be powerful for a non-Core sector, but it isn't powerful enough for them to care if they piss of Barregos.

The whole public logic would have been something along the lines of. "Who cares what the Erewhonese thinks. Everybody knows they were with Manticore, after they left us. Then they left Manticore to join up with Haven. Haven actively shot at our ships, that made Erewhon a legitimate military target."
Unspoken "and they have both sides near latest technology for us to plunder and steal so we don't keep getting massacred."

And then, if successful attack, most likely Sepoy gets the lid blown off, because what Barregos reported he was buying/investing in, would be revealed by the wrecked ships and anything still in building slips.

Can't argue with either kzt's or Somtaaw's logic here, but if you've read Cauldron of Ghosts, it has been revealed that (1) Maya and Erewhon have pretty much tied themselves together in an Alliance (without the SL knowing about it, of course) and (2) That they are arranging close ties with Haven to act as the 'big brother' if the SL makes moves against them with heavier forces than they can handle.

However....given all the disasters occuring (and soon to occur) to the ISLN and OFS/FF, it may be a case of "ass/alligators/swamp", and Erewhon won't get that attention because too many other things are happening--and we've already discovered that SLN intelligence is...problematic...when it comes to finding out what is happening outside the League.

And Erewhon still has (I presume) it's DN's from the earlier war fully up to 'Buttercup' specs and missile defense pods, so any SLN fleet calling on them may get a warmer welcome than expected.

But it may come down to who can spare the SD's first; Haven or the SL.

We may see...eventually.

IMHO as always. YMMV.