Captured Solly SDs

kzt wrote:

The E wrote:They are much better served with a comprehensive suite of system defense missile pods and couple of LACs, which are more than enough to deter most SLN raiding forces.

All you have to do is give them modern 1st tier gear and train them extensively in how to maintain and use it effectively.

What could possibly go wrong?

It's not like selling the Shah Phoenix missiles resulted in the new government giving up all the tech to the Soviet.... Oh, right, never mind.

I did not say that there weren't other considerations that have to be applied. I'm just saying that, given the capabilities of the average verge system, Superdreadnoughts are not a realistic option for defending them.

Verge systems do not have the option of your armchair 'realistic' options. They do not have the defense specific industries for maintenance. In fact, neither do the vast majority of SL Core worlds.

They have the try and succeed or try and fail options.

So, over 90% of the planets out there will be trying to "rent" a defense when SL fails be it FF, or BF vanishing. These planets cannot fix/create new soon enough. They also cannot count on anyone else selling them spares either.

I think of the SL core worlds more like Saudi Arabia. Has $$$, but no one to operate the systems. Could they learn? Sure, but they do not have anyone who actually knows. A rare few SL worlds will be like Japan/S.Korea with some defense industries, but the vast majority will be like Chile.

If the IMF, Brazil, and USA/EU all dropped out as influencing Argentina, Argentina would become expansionist ASAP. Both Argentina/Chile would buy those ships in a flash.

Chile has natural resources. Not much corruption. Neighbors with a history of being a PITA or who have tried to conquer them outright. Other Verge will be like Argentina. Massive corruption and looking to conquer to fix their problems, or just want power, or grass is greener folks.

Would these countries buy an SD in a flash if all outside influences evaporated? Hell yes they would. Would not matter if they cannot fix them. In Argentina's case, they would buy the SD and then immediately try to conquer Chile. In Chile's case, they need it for defense as they know damned well Argentina is coming as they have massive $$$ problems and have been picking on you for a very long timei, but with limited manpower compared to Argentina. Certainly cannot repair such a ship out of local resources. Would have to hope and pray their ship does not break down defending their country long enough so they can send a SOS to their friends to come send them spares. Or backdoor some spares on the black market along with some technicians who know how to install and calibrate them.

Think of it this way, In SoSAG, Monica got BC's. They are a VERGE planet. Everyone in the region immediately were put on notice that Monica was about to attack. If the RMN were not present do you honestly think that every Verge planet in the region who could possibly beg, borrow, or steal a division or two of BC's would not be scrounging around trying to buy them? Rembrandt certainly would have.

How many Rembrandts, Montanas are out there compared to Nuncio's who can't even dream of buying a 2nd hand Cl, let alone a BC. If only 1 in 8 are Rembrant/Montana status, all those captured ships will have new homes. How many of them are to be trusted with pod/MDM tech? DUH, none of them. How many do you want to make friends with? Well, most of them. How many do you want falling into enemy hands, or aligning with your enemies. Duh, none of them. Currently they have nothing in comparison to, or next to nothing if the Monica's of the universe manage to get their hands on a division of BC's or SD's.

I'm still sticking to the APSD concept of use.

No modifications at all.

Empty the missile mags and use that as equipment storage for light infantry.

Minimum crew manning of 1500-2000 plus 4000-4500 troops berthed.

Fast transports for the 7-8 TQ Infantry Divisions being formed - faster than cargo ships even if not as fast as modern warships.

Available now for transporting occupation garrisons...

Montrose Toast wrote:I'm still sticking to the APSD concept of use.

No modifications at all.

Empty the missile mags and use that as equipment storage for light infantry.

Minimum crew manning of 1500-2000 plus 4000-4500 troops berthed.

Fast transports for the 7-8 TQ Infantry Divisions being formed - faster than cargo ships even if not as fast as modern warships.

Available now for transporting occupation garrisons...

Assuming they need more longstop ships than they already have who hold upwards of 50,000. Since we are talking taking planets here, 5000 troops is like dropping a molecule of water into the great lakes for total number of troops required to garrison a planet with billions of people. So, now you need 15,000 naval personnel to transport 50,000 grunts. Ug, bad trade.

Relax wrote:

Montrose Toast wrote:I'm still sticking to the APSD concept of use.

No modifications at all.

Empty the missile mags and use that as equipment storage for light infantry.

Minimum crew manning of 1500-2000 plus 4000-4500 troops berthed.

Fast transports for the 7-8 TQ Infantry Divisions being formed - faster than cargo ships even if not as fast as modern warships.

Available now for transporting occupation garrisons...

Assuming they need more longstop ships than they already have who hold upwards of 50,000. Since we are talking taking planets here, 5000 troops is like dropping a molecule of water into the great lakes for total number of troops required to garrison a planet with billions of people. So, now you need 15,000 naval personnel to transport 50,000 grunts. Ug, bad trade.

IIRC the Longstops belong to the GSN. Also you don't need all that big a occupation force if you have a ship in orbit to drop KEW's on any restive populations.

saber964 wrote:IIRC the Longstops belong to the GSN. Also you don't need all that big a occupation force if you have a ship in orbit to drop KEW's on any restive populations.

Here we are on beautiful scenic Mesa, where in city A, population 1.4 million, there is a large group of former slaves that are on a rampage in a residential area. In City b, population 2.7 million, the authorities are busy putting down a secie revolt in a large urban tower.

Who are you planning on targeting with your kiloton-megaton range KE weapons?

saber964 wrote:IIRC the Longstops belong to the GSN. Also you don't need all that big a occupation force if you have a ship in orbit to drop KEW's on any restive populations.

Some of the Longstops (the ones Honor sent ahead in the first flight of the Hades prison breakout) may belong the GSN. But I doubt the GSN kept them--they were transports built on merchant hulls, with no military hardware upgrades. The Roughnecks that Honor used in the second flight were military transports though.

Both the Longstops and the Roughnecks were appropriated by Honor from the People's Republic of Haven (StateSec and the PRN).

Relax wrote:

Montrose Toast wrote:I'm still sticking to the APSD concept of use.

No modifications at all.

Empty the missile mags and use that as equipment storage for light infantry.

Minimum crew manning of 1500-2000 plus 4000-4500 troops berthed.

Fast transports for the 7-8 TQ Infantry Divisions being formed - faster than cargo ships even if not as fast as modern warships.

Available now for transporting occupation garrisons...

Assuming they need more longstop ships than they already have who hold upwards of 50,000. Since we are talking taking planets here, 5000 troops is like dropping a molecule of water into the great lakes for total number of troops required to garrison a planet with billions of people. So, now you need 15,000 naval personnel to transport 50,000 grunts. Ug, bad trade.

No worse of a personnel ratio than USN LHA/LHDs carrying Jarheads. Wasp Class is 1000 crew with 3000 Marines. The old Tarawa Clas was 800 crew with 1800 Marines. It is the same ratio as used by current navies...

Montrose Toast wrote:No worse of a personnel ratio than USN LHA/LHDs carrying Jarheads. Wasp Class is 1000 crew with 3000 Marines. The old Tarawa Clas was 800 crew with 1800 Marines. It is the same ratio as used by current navies...

So, just because historically speaking the ratio is the same somehow makes your proposition good? When there is already a freely viable alternative using far fewer personnel(50) to move 50,000. Especially when you need hundreds of thousands?

Now I could swallow the argument that there will not be enough such ships, but your thesis without an appendix? Uh, no. Of course such ships are dime a dozen as all it requires is a civilian hull already around used to transport the tens of thousands of new colonists and their supplies to new worlds.

Relax wrote:

Montrose Toast wrote:No worse of a personnel ratio than USN LHA/LHDs carrying Jarheads. Wasp Class is 1000 crew with 3000 Marines. The old Tarawa Clas was 800 crew with 1800 Marines. It is the same ratio as used by current navies...

So, just because historically speaking the ratio is the same somehow makes your proposition good? When there is already a freely viable alternative using far fewer personnel(50) to move 50,000. Especially when you need hundreds of thousands?

Now I could swallow the argument that there will not be enough such ships, but your thesis without an appendix? Uh, no. Of course such ships are dime a dozen as all it requires is a civilian hull already around used to transport the tens of thousands of new colonists and their supplies to new worlds.

All of which are slower and not necissarily available now...

The fast transports [APDs] of WWII were 1:1 crew to pax and were not particularly fast compared to warships.
What they were was available and faster than merchant ships and transports available at the time.

As a short term fix until dedicated gators can be acquired the SLN SDs are:
1. Available now with only manning needed including enough to move the TQ Guard located in the TQ.
2. Cheap since they are RMN owned.
3. Can act as a scarecrow and transport until better can be acquired. "Better is the enemy of good enough."

All of the other proposals to transport the TQ Guard will take More time, money, and resources than this.

Also, I'm being conservative on manning vs pax. I have a hard time beliving that those SDs would need 1,500 pers to man the bridge, engineering, and environmentals only. For every crewmember removed and additional PAX can be carried - those vessels are rated for 6000 crew/marines...

PS Look up Broadsword Class in RMN. The ratio of crew to jarheads is even worse than what I'm proposing for these APSDs...