The RMN's new construction fleet and what it means.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Kammerlings have been mentioned on several different threads as being under-armed and too weak, or as not carrying enough marines for planetary occupation. Lyonheart brought up the notional cruiser/destroyer as possibly being the RMN's notional new "300K ton ship", but he isn't alone in wanting it to be a frontline vessel. In spite of HoS. But Lyonheart especially doesn't like that book.

Eh, that's just two things the Kamerling isn't: the 300k workhorse, or something to bring an entire planetary occupation. It's for police and peacekeeping. The peacekeeping contribution wouldn't be to move in an occupation force - it's to serve as a space-based rapid deployment force to trouble spots. Or perhaps to occupy very, very small colonies or space stations. If the SEM is occupying a world, the primary responsibility for it will be with the Army. A Kamerling and its Marines would just be to secure landing zones, slap trouble spots, and keep things off the surface tidy with orbital control, inspections, etc. (And along the lines Rob just noted, it's not even something that's expected to hold the system alone unless the opposition is very meager, old, feckless, or several of the above.)

It's a fine specialist. It's only going to get in trouble if people expect it to be what it is not.

thinkstoomuch wrote: Still doesn't address that there are likely another 6-10k of LACs in the Home System which is far from the total destruction of all the LACs that you posted.

Stop and think about how many thousand LACs Manticore/Greyson must have produced. If it was around 10k in Manticore probably quite a few thousand among all the 20-30 allies that stayed signed on in 1920.

In keeping with the topic. They literally have thousands of the dang things all over the place.

What I found interesting was that at the 2nd Manticore Honor only used ~2,000.

For what it's worth, Honor says, "there are two thousand [LACs] deployed with each of my forces." (emph added) That could mean 2k with the inside Manty-Grayson group, and 2k with the outside Havenite group.

JeffEngel wrote:

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Kammerlings have been mentioned on several different threads as being under-armed and too weak, or as not carrying enough marines for planetary occupation. Lyonheart brought up the notional cruiser/destroyer as possibly being the RMN's notional new "300K ton ship", but he isn't alone in wanting it to be a frontline vessel. In spite of HoS. But Lyonheart especially doesn't like that book.

Eh, that's just two things the Kamerling isn't: the 300k workhorse, or something to bring an entire planetary occupation. It's for police and peacekeeping. The peacekeeping contribution wouldn't be to move in an occupation force - it's to serve as a space-based rapid deployment force to trouble spots. Or perhaps to occupy very, very small colonies or space stations. If the SEM is occupying a world, the primary responsibility for it will be with the Army. A Kamerling and its Marines would just be to secure landing zones, slap trouble spots, and keep things off the surface tidy with orbital control, inspections, etc. (And along the lines Rob just noted, it's not even something that's expected to hold the system alone unless the opposition is very meager, old, feckless, or several of the above.)

It's a fine specialist. It's only going to get in trouble if people expect it to be what it is not.

Seeing that it probably has the LERM, The Kammerling SHOULD be able to hold it's own against any pre-1900 CA - making it a perfect backwater policing and anti-piracy vessel. asking more than that is probably too much.

snipping older quotes

Theemile wrote:
Seeing that it probably has the LERM, The Kammerling SHOULD be able to hold it's own against any pre-1900 CA - making it a perfect backwater policing and anti-piracy vessel. asking more than that is probably too much.

We never got a whole lot of info on the Mk36, except it came from the Sag-B design study (along with the Mk14). Specifics are hard to come by--non-disclosure agreements and die-before-you-read it and all that. I think it does come with the same missiles as the Avalon, though.

regards, Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:snipping older quotes

Theemile wrote:
Seeing that it probably has the LERM, The Kammerling SHOULD be able to hold it's own against any pre-1900 CA - making it a perfect backwater policing and anti-piracy vessel. asking more than that is probably too much.

We never got a whole lot of info on the Mk36, except it came from the Sag-B design study (along with the Mk14). Specifics are hard to come by--non-disclosure agreements and die-before-you-read it and all that. I think it does come with the same missiles as the Avalon, though.

regards, Rob

The missiles missing from the hammerhead is telling - it has to field a missile with off-bore capability to cover those arcs. That limits it to the Shrike Missile, the ERM, the LERM, the Mk 16, the mk 41 and the Mk23. Since we've been told that nothing with a beam slimmer than a Sag C can mount a Mk 16 in it's broadsides, I think we can rule out the Mk 16, 41, and 23. The ERM is an oversized cruiser weight missile, so it is possible, but the ERM would cut highly into the mass of the ships and make people question why it was classified as a CL, not a CA. Everything else in the post-thunderbolt build appears to have extended ranges, so that pretty much rules out the standard range Shrike missile.

Leaving the Mk 36 LERM (the same ammo as the Wolfhound and the Avalon) as the likely contender.

Bill Woods wrote:For what it's worth, Honor says, "there are two thousand [LACs] deployed with each of my forces." (emph added) That could mean 2k with the inside Manty-Grayson group, and 2k with the outside Havenite group.

Dang, thanks for the correction. What I get for going by what I recalled.

Have fun,
T2M

Even if Kamerlings had LERMs, the wiki states

While capable combatants against pirates and privateers, these ships were not meant to engage with first-rate starships, since their armament was directed more towards defense, with additional space consumed by life support for large Marine complements.

I don't know about you, but comparing a ship from time X, with anything except other ships from time X +/- 5 years max, is no longer comparing it to first-rate. Which means it was indeed exactly what the Kamerling was built to engage and hold superiority too.

I think a Kamerling could give even a Sag-B a run for her money in a solo ship duel. Nevada's, and Mars class, to account for SLN and any remaining StateSec holdouts, would definitely fall under "not first rate", and again be the rightful prey to a Kamerling.

*IF* a Kamerling has SD-grade grasers, I think one could even take a GSN Raoul Courvosier II BC(p) in a 1v1 duel, greater point defense, beats pod rolling. And if the Kamer's feeling particularly sneaky, it could attempt to flush its pinnaces and assault shuttles as "wannabe Katanas".

Somtaaw wrote:Even if Kamerlings had LERMs, the wiki states

While capable combatants against pirates and privateers, these ships were not meant to engage with first-rate starships, since their armament was directed more towards defense, with additional space consumed by life support for large Marine complements.

I don't know about you, but comparing a ship from time X, with anything except other ships from time X +/- 5 years max, is no longer comparing it to first-rate. Which means it was indeed exactly what the Kamerling was built to engage and hold superiority too.

I think a Kamerling could give even a Sag-B a run for her money in a solo ship duel. Nevada's, and Mars class, to account for SLN and any remaining StateSec holdouts, would definitely fall under "not first rate", and again be the rightful prey to a Kamerling.

*IF* a Kamerling has SD-grade grasers, I think one could even take a GSN Raoul Courvosier II BC(p) in a 1v1 duel, greater point defense, beats pod rolling. And if the Kamer's feeling particularly sneaky, it could attempt to flush its pinnaces and assault shuttles as "wannabe Katanas".

1) Never quote from wiki, it is often dead wrong compared to HoS.

2) Kamerling would be like spit on a Gridle compared to a SAG-B. SAG-B has twice the missile tubes and CM tubes.

2a) Kamerling against BC'P?

3) Kamerlings most likely do not have SD sized Grasers. Why?

One SD sized Graser is approximately 30,000 tons each. One can attain this crude estimate by looking at the Minotaur verses Hydra verses Covington CLAC differences.

Essentially all 3 are the same tonnage but the Covington has an additional 24 LAC's equating to roughly 480,000 tons for the loss of 18 Missile tubes/Magazines, and 8 Grasers. We know the majority of the mass is tied up in the Grasers because the Hydra class CLAC gain an additional 6 MDM capacitor missile tubes/magazines, an additional 12 LAC's, More CM's/PDLC, for only the cost of 8 Grasers. 12 LAC's by themselves require a minimum of 240,000 tons additional even before counting docking, missile spares, etc. 240,000/8 Grasers is 30,000tons. It is safe to say, each SD sized Graser is north of 30,000 tons each.

When one views this tonnage in light of SD and look at Deveniski GSN SD class, roughly 2.4M tons out of 8.3M tons of ship is 100% Graser.

Relax wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Even if Kamerlings had LERMs, the wiki states

'While capable combatants against pirates and privateers, these ships were not meant to engage with first-rate starships, since their armament was directed more towards defense, with additional space consumed by life support for large Marine complements.'


I don't know about you, but comparing a ship from time X, with anything except other ships from time X +/- 5 years max, is no longer comparing it to first-rate. Which means it was indeed exactly what the Kamerling was built to engage and hold superiority too.

I think a Kamerling could give even a Sag-B a run for her money in a solo ship duel. Nevada's, and Mars class, to account for SLN and any remaining StateSec holdouts, would definitely fall under "not first rate", and again be the rightful prey to a Kamerling.

*IF* a Kamerling has SD-grade grasers, I think one could even take a GSN Raoul Courvosier II BC(p) in a 1v1 duel, greater point defense, beats pod rolling. And if the Kamer's feeling particularly sneaky, it could attempt to flush its pinnaces and assault shuttles as "wannabe Katanas".

1) Never quote from wiki, it is often dead wrong compared to HoS.

2) Kamerling would be like spit on a Gridle compared to a SAG-B. SAG-B has twice the missile tubes and CM tubes.

2a) Kamerling against BC'P?

3) Kamerlings most likely do not have SD sized Grasers. Why?

One SD sized Graser is approximately 30,000 tons each. One can attain this crude estimate by looking at the Minotaur verses Hydra verses Covington CLAC differences.

Essentially all 3 are the same tonnage but the Covington has an additional 24 LAC's equating to roughly 480,000 tons for the loss of 18 Missile tubes/Magazines, and 8 Grasers. We know the majority of the mass is tied up in the Grasers because the Hydra class CLAC gain an additional 6 MDM capacitor missile tubes/magazines, an additional 12 LAC's, More CM's/PDLC, for only the cost of 8 Grasers. 12 LAC's by themselves require a minimum of 240,000 tons additional even before counting docking, missile spares, etc. 240,000/8 Grasers is 30,000tons. It is safe to say, each SD sized Graser is north of 30,000 tons each.

When one views this tonnage in light of SD and look at Deveniski GSN SD class, roughly 2.4M tons out of 8.3M tons of ship is 100% Graser.

And the only ship class House of Steel states as having superdreadnaught grasers (other than SDs) is the Nike-class BC, a ship that masses more than 9 times the Kamerling-class CL (BuShips designation) or system control cruiser (official RMN classification). House of Steel also states that the Kamerling class "is in fact closer to a replacement for the Broadsword-class heavy cruiser."

Somtaaw wrote:<snip>
And if the Kamer's feeling particularly sneaky, it could attempt to flush its pinnaces and assault shuttles as "wannabe Katanas".

You do realize that EACH of the 3 SD PDLCs on the nose of a Katana outmass an assault shuttle? And that none of a pinnance or assault shuttle's weapons can do much more than chip the paint on any warship? Their missile warheads are chemical in an environment designed to absorb strategic nuclear warheads.

The wedges on shuttles and pinnances are so small and under powered that a CM will destroy them. Flushing the dozen or so Pinnances/Assault Shuttles on a Kammerling during a fight isn't going to account for much other than giving your opponent's tactical team more live fire training.