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Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form of RD

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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Bill Woods   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:23 pm

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Somtaaw wrote: Somewhere in uh, think it was HH3, or HH4, we get an explaination of how the SKM military broke down prize money, in relation to buying in captured vessels. If pirates operate anywhere near the same, the captain likely gets a considerably larger cut. Although probably at the risk of operating more like a Star Trek Klingon vessel, he's likely to be looking over his shoulder alot, in case of mutiny.
From On Basilisk Station:
The traditional award of a half percent of the value of all contraband seized might not sound like a lot, but they'd sent in over a billion and a half dollars worth of it. ... The captain's share was six percent of the total, which gave Honor herself a tidy little half million so far (she'd discovered that even she could do that math easily enough), which was almost eight years' salary for an RMN commander, but her noncoms and enlisted personnel got seventy percent to split among them. That meant even the least senior of them would receive almost twelve thousand dollars, and by long tradition and despite periodic assaults by the Exchequer, prize money was untaxable.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Louis R   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:31 pm

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there are a couple of things you are missing in all this.

first off, most of the galaxy's pirates are the equivalent of buccaneers trying to run down galleons in rowboats off the Caimans - they have neither the sophistication nor the capacity to operate any sort of drone. most of the rest are operating feebly armed yachts in the frigate size range - 60-70kT - and, while they may have the sophistication, still don't have the capacity to carry anything as big as a real RD. at 300-500T, RD's are bigger than pinnaces. and, as has been pointed out, are honking expensive to acquire and operate. that reduces them to something like your 'improv' design. however...

second, a ballistic RD of whatever size is completely useless. as has also already been pointed out, you _must_ ID that warship in time to get away. which means before you close to 6Mkm plus whatever range extension your closing velocity adds. guess what? that only works with ballistic drones if you're willing to take until sometime next week to catch your target. with 500g accel, the higher the velocity you impart to the drone, the closer behind it you're going to be when it reaches the other guy and the further you're going to overfly him - which gives a freighter that much more time to get away, and a warship that much more time to blow you to dust bunnies. as an example, let's assume that you've persuaded your victim to cut his accel [since you don't want him evading you] when you're 10M km away, closing at 10,000kps. you drop your drone to check on his bonafides, and it crosses his wedge 1000s later. sounds good, no? _but_, at that time, your velocity is still 5000kps, you won't come to rest wrt him for another 1000s & 12M km, _and_ you're less than 2.5M km away with your butt turned directly towards him. if it is a warship, you just wasted a drone, because you're dead whenever he pulls the trigger. if he isn't, you just wasted a drone, since it doesn't matter if you know for sure that he's a freighter before you pull up beside him. change any of the intercept parameters and you simply change the range you're blown away at, until you've changed them so much that a real freighter is simply going to be able to get away from you anyway.

and, finally [a 'couple' is kind of vague, you know], you are drastically underestimating the size, power requirements and sophistication needed even for your 'ballistic' drone. not only do you need a camera good enough to distinguish warship from freighter - probably not too difficult, in itself - you need a transmitter powerful enough to get the image back to you in reasonable time across many M km of space, possibly with something really noisy in the background. and you need a refrigeration system good enough to keep that transmitter functioning long enough to do that without frying itself. and you need a pretty high-gain antenna - as the price for avoiding an even bigger transmitter - that needs rather classy guidance and pointing systems. and an even better refrigerator, to keep them from frying themselves, the camera and the transmitter. and a control package for all the above, with yet more refrigeration to keep... start to get the picture?

Somtaaw wrote:
Kizarvexis wrote:-snip-"Send a drone to check out the freighter." "Again? Boring." "Oh, look. Another freighter." After awhile, dropping the drone, using it and then recovery and refurbish it. Costs money for maintenance and spare parts. If you don't run into a warship over and over, then you would get tired of doing that. Keeping it up takes discipline and even military units have to work to keep that discipline. -snip-


True, but the moment you catch a trolling warship or two over a few weeks (accounting for travel time to another system after running away from the first), I'd imagine a pirate crew would put up with a pirate skipper's foible of verifying every single target. Especially if the pirate skip in question eats the share of the recon drone/bullet.

Somewhere in uh, think it was HH3, or HH4, we get an explaination of how the SKM military broke down prize money, in relation to buying in captured vessels. If pirates operate anywhere near the same, the captain likely gets a considerably larger cut. Although probably at the risk of operating more like a Star Trek Klingon vessel, he's likely to be looking over his shoulder alot, in case of mutiny.

Thinking hard on it though, it's also quite likely pirate crews, regardless of how many warships you detected by insisting on the probe, would have the attitude of "well when was the last warship you helped us evade?"

saber964 wrote:-snip-
Also where are you going to replace your consumables like missile reloads, reactor mass, food, spare parts ect, ect. What if your pirates ship need repairs after successfully fighting off a navy ship and you suffer damage that requires a shipyard to repair. Do you think a shipyard in not going to over charge you, for your repairs.


You'd expend anywhere from one to perhaps five missiles on merchants, as warning shots, that seems to be fairly standard doctrine from all the anti-pirate patrols we read.

For other consumables, other than food & water, your primary consumption would just be reactor mass, like any other hyper ship. Repairs would also become incredibly rarely needed, because you can escape most fights before they even start.

It's arguable that for all the potential expenses and services you'd need to have available without rd's, would be saved by using them.

So it's almost a balance of smart versus stupid. Smarter pirates might use rds (assuming they even have them, this would really have to be something asked to Weber himself), the stupid pirates are the ones we get to read about who don't rely on anything except impeller strength & acceleration.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:42 pm

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SWM wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Now there's a thought. We know that Kingsford et. al are discussing a strategy of commerce raiding. With the identified likelihood that most garden variety pirates DON'T use RDs, as soon as FF goes on the hunt, the jig will be up everywhere.

The moment that they encounter a Roland or two escorting a freighter convey, I'd think. Because the SLN ships aren't even going to get within range and do anything useful UNLESS they use RDs, and once that happens, they have to close on and kill the Rolands, or the whole arrogant strategy is revealed.

Yes/no/maybe?

I think you are under the mistaken impression that the commerce raiding will be disguised as common piracy. Why would you think that? There is no reason for the SLN to pretend to be pirates. They will be out raiding, openly.
Not mistaken, just typing with my "hate them stupid politician's" hat on, and that hat says "what, us Sollies, why, we're the good guys! We couldn't do something as overt as COMMERCE RAIDING Without a declaration of war? Ne-vah!" Of course we readers know that answer is that they don't give a rat's hindquarters about the truth, but I'd think that the Mandarins don't want to be especially noisy about it in the first place (they think the Manties are stupid, remember?) and their goal is "get the OFS revenue stream back online!" not anything remotely resembling a wartime footing.

"The jig is up" applies more for the Roland's sensor recordings that the GA can play to all of the Verge Protectorate shippers, etc. because there's not a whole lot of Manticoran shipping that Frontier Fleet can get to, no matter how hard they try in the short or maybe even medium term.
---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by munroburton   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:48 pm

munroburton
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SharkHunter wrote:
SWM wrote:I think you are under the mistaken impression that the commerce raiding will be disguised as common piracy. Why would you think that? There is no reason for the SLN to pretend to be pirates. They will be out raiding, openly.
Not mistaken, just typing with my "hate them stupid politician's" hat on, and that hat says "what, us Sollies, why, we're the good guys! We couldn't do something as overt as COMMERCE RAIDING Without a declaration of war? Ne-vah!" Of course we readers know that answer is that they don't give a rat's hindquarters about the truth, but I'd think that the Mandarins don't want to be especially noisy about it in the first place (they think the Manties are stupid, remember?) and their goal is "get the OFS revenue stream back online!" not anything remotely resembling a wartime footing.

"The jig is up" applies more for the Roland's sensor recordings that the GA can play to all of the Verge Protectorate shippers, etc. because there's not a whole lot of Manticoran shipping that Frontier Fleet can get to, no matter how hard they try in the short or maybe even medium term.


The only reason commerce raiding was put on the table is the Mandarins demanded effective military action, or at least the appearance thereof, and battle fleet has proved its uselessness several times over. They need victories to shore up their personal positions.

Remember how the PRH used to exaggerate MA losses while understating their own? The SL will try to throw task forces of BCs at the smallest RMN divisions they can find and go after convoys with light escorts. Any engagements where all involved SLN ships are not destroyed or surrendered qualifies as a victory.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Bill Woods   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:53 pm

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munroburton wrote: Any engagements where all involved SLN ships are not destroyed or surrendered qualifies as a victory.
Jeez, you can't set the bar lower than that!
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by DDHvi   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:22 pm

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Looking at present day piracy: Somalia pirates taking hostage oil tankers. Since the tankers are unarmed, the pirates only need faster boats and minimum weapons. One tanker arranged for a sniper to be on board - the battle was soon over, with no surviving pirates.

Now, the SEM presumably has (or will have) obsolete missiles and missile controls. Also, there must be some technicians who are not up to military needs - age, illness, etc. but can still pot an easy target. This could be even more useful once the older tractor equipped missiles become obsolete. Or, how hard would it be to modify a ship to have several close (touching) tractor mounts for old missiles?

I recall a Poul Anderson story where Nicholas van Rijn stymied a government operated piracy operation by arming one out of every so many ships to be able to take the pirates. The Q-ships worked in Silesia. Is it practical to make a little brother for Q-ships? What effect on piracy would an occasional "sniper" armed ship have? What percentage of the ships would need to be so armed? For that matter, unless the pirates consistently choose to treat crews politely, some ships might choose to also install dead man switches to blow the fusion reactors, as in "Citizen of the Galaxy." Even though this can't kill the pirate ship, wouldn't an occasional crew prefer to take some boarders with them while preventing nasty treatment?

The key to stopping piracy and many other such crimes, is to make them VERY unprofitable. The law in the Bible had a penalty of 20% to those who turned themselves in, and 100% to 400% for caught thieves, depending on the circumstances.
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd
ddhviste@drtel.net

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by SWM   » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:53 pm

SWM
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munroburton wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:Not mistaken, just typing with my "hate them stupid politician's" hat on, and that hat says "what, us Sollies, why, we're the good guys! We couldn't do something as overt as COMMERCE RAIDING Without a declaration of war? Ne-vah!" Of course we readers know that answer is that they don't give a rat's hindquarters about the truth, but I'd think that the Mandarins don't want to be especially noisy about it in the first place (they think the Manties are stupid, remember?) and their goal is "get the OFS revenue stream back online!" not anything remotely resembling a wartime footing.

"The jig is up" applies more for the Roland's sensor recordings that the GA can play to all of the Verge Protectorate shippers, etc. because there's not a whole lot of Manticoran shipping that Frontier Fleet can get to, no matter how hard they try in the short or maybe even medium term.


The only reason commerce raiding was put on the table is the Mandarins demanded effective military action, or at least the appearance thereof, and battle fleet has proved its uselessness several times over. They need victories to shore up their personal positions.

Remember how the PRH used to exaggerate MA losses while understating their own? The SL will try to throw task forces of BCs at the smallest RMN divisions they can find and go after convoys with light escorts. Any engagements where all involved SLN ships are not destroyed or surrendered qualifies as a victory.

Exactly. The Solarians aren't planning commerce raiding as an effective way of wiping out Manticore--they are planning commerce raiding as a public response and an achievement they can point to. They don't intend to hide their commerce raiding--they want everyone to know they are "doing something about those barbarians".
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by kzt   » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:28 am

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It isn't just the missiles. It is the fire control systems, control arrays, detection systems, etc.

And no, all the missiles not on ships got all blowed up.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by Kizarvexis   » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:59 am

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DDHvi wrote:Looking at present day piracy: Somalia pirates taking hostage oil tankers. Since the tankers are unarmed, the pirates only need faster boats and minimum weapons. One tanker arranged for a sniper to be on board - the battle was soon over, with no surviving pirates.

Now, the SEM presumably has (or will have) obsolete missiles and missile controls. Also, there must be some technicians who are not up to military needs - age, illness, etc. but can still pot an easy target. This could be even more useful once the older tractor equipped missiles become obsolete. Or, how hard would it be to modify a ship to have several close (touching) tractor mounts for old missiles?

I recall a Poul Anderson story where Nicholas van Rijn stymied a government operated piracy operation by arming one out of every so many ships to be able to take the pirates. The Q-ships worked in Silesia. Is it practical to make a little brother for Q-ships? What effect on piracy would an occasional "sniper" armed ship have? What percentage of the ships would need to be so armed? For that matter, unless the pirates consistently choose to treat crews politely, some ships might choose to also install dead man switches to blow the fusion reactors, as in "Citizen of the Galaxy." Even though this can't kill the pirate ship, wouldn't an occasional crew prefer to take some boarders with them while preventing nasty treatment?

The key to stopping piracy and many other such crimes, is to make them VERY unprofitable. The law in the Bible had a penalty of 20% to those who turned themselves in, and 100% to 400% for caught thieves, depending on the circumstances.


The only thing RFC has said that might be done to 'arm' a freighter that is not run by a military as a Q-ship, is to put in a module in a cargo bay with some new build LACs to escort the freighter to and from the hyperlimit.
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Re: Why do pirates (privateers) not seem to carry any form o
Post by drothgery   » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:22 am

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kzt wrote:And no, all the missiles not on ships got all blowed up.
No one in-universe is acting like this is the case, so I'm going to conclude that it's not.
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