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What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by vietnamabc   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:43 am

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Ships with configurable Warshawski sail that specialize in h-space combat, moving between secondary termini, ships that can hyper out in resonance zone/ seeing in RZ.
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:58 am

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quark wrote:Third, Honor isn't portrayed as having a "super grasp of ground operations." The only area where ground operations are present is in OBS, and you'll notice that she left almost the entirety of the operational planning to her experts on it, and she never tried to override them in that, or the actual conduction of ground ops, instead, she gave them what feedback she could from a fleet perspective and what she wanted to do with Fearless.
That reminds me of something I meant to write up and post earlier. (But first, a minor tangent. Arguably the Marine assault on Blackbird base in HotQ counts as "ground" operations")

Integration and coordination with Marine landing / boarding parties would almost certainly be part of both normal officer training and the ATC "crusher". There's more to being a ship captain than ship to ship tactics.

So while I agree there's no real evidence that Honor has a "super grasp of ground operations" she does have, as you'd expect from a somewhat experience and well trained Queen's Officer, a fairly solid theoretical understanding of how the Marines that are under her command should be used.


That said, her main insight into ground ops for OBS was just that there was almost certainly still a security leak groundside, so the Marine's first plan to pre-deploy and integrate with the offworld enclave security would give too much warning. You don't need any particular training or practice in ground combat skills or tactics to make that observation. :D
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by akira.taylor   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:56 pm

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quark wrote:I disagree with you on several points Mor. Sorry for the long post, but please comment back on anything you have reason to disagree with in my post.

<SNIP>

Finally, I think you are misunderstanding her actions on Grayson. She never bridges those religious/cultural differences. I don't know where you could see this. The way she gains the support of the Graysons is by SAVING THEIR ENTIRE PLANET. That seems like something they might accept her for. Still, many don't, so I don't think that she reverses Houseman's platitudes about getting along and finding common ground. Again, she goes around the system, instead of finding a way to work with the system or even change the system. Also, the "Grayson elite" (I think you are referencing Mayhew) used to be the dominant political power, and has been forced to the side, not willingly dropped that power. Benjamin, who by all accounts is no average person either, seized the opportunity he was given to regain that influence.

I don't suggest that you have to read all the books to enjoy the first ones, but I do think that you are misinterpreting them. Please give me feedback if you disagree: I love discussing things like this.


I would add: Houseman wanted Grayson and Masada to "get along and find common ground" (because their "stupid religious squabble" is preventing both from being more prosperous). Honor gets Grayson to find common ground with Manticore (who 1) has never used WMDs on Grayson cities, and 2) has put its navy between Grayson and psycho murderers who do use WMDs on Grayson cities (remember: the last war was ~35 years before we meet Grayson, so there are still veterans around)).
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by bhasseler   » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:51 pm

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possible Chekhov's gun: Allison's aunt Jacqueline
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by Imaginos1892   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:19 am

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dreamrider wrote:(For you old fans out there, the three "even worse" individuals I can think of are Cordelia Ransom,

Granted.
Pavel Young,

I'd add Dmitri Young, the tree that nut didn't fall far from.
and Denver Summervale. I suppose you could add the warden at Hades, but he was a cameo. Feel free to chime in with any other candidates for "worse than the Masadan Elders".)

Michael Janvier. 100% self-serving mealymouthed hypocrite.
Elaine Descroix. Mesa took care of that loose end.
William Fitzclarence. Paid for sabotage that killed over a hundred children just for effect.
Gerald Younger. Ready to torpedo the peace talks out of petty greed.

Some would say Oscar Saint-Just, but I'd disagree. Ruthless and cold as a snake, but he didn't enjoy hurting people and never did it out of greed. While he didn't share Rob S. Pierre's idealism, he did admire it.
----------------
Look, everybody! Weasley's got 'imself a Howler!
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by Theemile   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:59 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:<snip>
Some would say Oscar Saint-Just, but I'd disagree. Ruthless and cold as a snake, but he didn't enjoy hurting people and never did it out of greed. While he didn't share Rob S. Pierre's idealism, he did admire it.


Oscar knew who he was and knew his faults, and he never wanted to run Haven. He knew the only way to control Haven as it was, was through an iron grip. And circumstances kept proving him correct and forcing him to squeeze further to keep control. He realized he was on a Freight train with no brakes on a downward grade and the only options were to apply more throttle or run off the rails.

Was he a psychopath, oh, almost definitely. but still a sympathetic character despite the carnage that was at his feet. (Mostly because he knew it was morally wrong, yet accepted it had to be done, and he was one of the few which could do it without batting an eye.)
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by dreamrider   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:18 pm

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Greentea wrote:Not to mention Oscar St. Just and the Detweilers. All of them are perfectly capable slaughter and torture billions upon billions in order to achieve what they presume to be righteous goals and sleep comfortably without a single regret over their actions. Even the most evil villains in the series, like the Masadans, Denver Summervale and Pavel Young have reasons behind their actions. It can be as simple as a seriously warped worldview, but each villain believes their actions are right and just. There is very little evil for the sake of evil.


Yes, I deliberately did not mention Oscar St Just or the Detweilers. They don't meet my personal standards for "purely" evil, despite the levels of horrificness that their respective power allow them to reach.
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by roseandheather   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:19 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
dreamrider wrote:(For you old fans out there, the three "even worse" individuals I can think of are Cordelia Ransom,

Granted.
Pavel Young,

I'd add Dmitri Young, the tree that nut didn't fall far from.
and Denver Summervale. I suppose you could add the warden at Hades, but he was a cameo. Feel free to chime in with any other candidates for "worse than the Masadan Elders".)

Michael Janvier. 100% self-serving mealymouthed hypocrite.
Elaine Descroix. Mesa took care of that loose end.
William Fitzclarence. Paid for sabotage that killed over a hundred children just for effect.
Gerald Younger. Ready to torpedo the peace talks out of petty greed.

Some would say Oscar Saint-Just, but I'd disagree. Ruthless and cold as a snake, but he didn't enjoy hurting people and never did it out of greed. While he didn't share Rob S. Pierre's idealism, he did admire it.
----------------
Look, everybody! Weasley's got 'imself a Howler!


Arnold Giancola, general selfish, horrible, all-round piece of shit for obvious Haven-hurting (and Manticore-hurting) reasons. I will never, ever forgive him.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by dreamrider   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:32 pm

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Imaginos1892 wrote:
dreamrider wrote:(For you old fans out there, the three "even worse" individuals I can think of are Cordelia Ransom,

Granted.
Pavel Young,

I'd add Dmitri Young, the tree that nut didn't fall far from.
and Denver Summervale. I suppose you could add the warden at Hades, but he was a cameo. Feel free to chime in with any other candidates for "worse than the Masadan Elders".)

Michael Janvier. 100% self-serving mealymouthed hypocrite.
Elaine Descroix. Mesa took care of that loose end.
William Fitzclarence. Paid for sabotage that killed over a hundred children just for effect.
Gerald Younger. Ready to torpedo the peace talks out of petty greed.

Some would say Oscar Saint-Just, but I'd disagree. Ruthless and cold as a snake, but he didn't enjoy hurting people and never did it out of greed. While he didn't share Rob S. Pierre's idealism, he did admire it.
----------------
Look, everybody! Weasley's got 'imself a Howler!


I think I'll buy those, Imaginos. As I have said elsewhere, I certainly agree with your evaluation of St Just, which is why he wasn't on my list.

dr
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Re: What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse
Post by dreamrider   » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:33 pm

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vietnamabc wrote:Ships with configurable Warshawski sail that specialize in h-space combat, moving between secondary termini, ships that can hyper out in resonance zone/ seeing in RZ.


Is this note in the wrong thread?

Since these things do not exist in the Honorverse canon, they pretty much cannot be Checkov's muskets.

dreamrider
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