Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?

Roguevictory wrote:And who is more likely to have access to the technology needed to pull this off Manpower or Haven? A genetics engineering conglomerate or a star nation not exactly known for top of the line medical research? I would have put my money on Manpower any day.

this is the thing which always buggered me, after everything i've read, i simple couldn't believe everyone will not associate advanced bio technology with manpower, and thinking it was Heaven instead.

Heaven who can't even catch up with manticore on more conventional science fields, because of deficits in educational system. Heaven, who doesn't even have enough personal to maintain their ships in field, without using prefabricated plug und play components or dedicated facilities. Hell, they don't even have enough educated personal to build something as simple as miniature fusion reactor fr their MDMs, i think everyone agrees such a MDM is lightyears away from programmed viruses able to override muscle memory of a person.

There are a lot of corporations other than Manpower that can do that kind of genetics research, and Haven has the money to buy it (or at least a weapon system using it) from any of them.

vovchara wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:And who is more likely to have access to the technology needed to pull this off Manpower or Haven? A genetics engineering conglomerate or a star nation not exactly known for top of the line medical research? I would have put my money on Manpower any day.

this is the thing which always buggered me, after everything i've read, i simple couldn't believe everyone will not associate advanced bio technology with manpower, and thinking it was Heaven instead.

Heaven who can't even catch up with manticore on more conventional science fields, because of deficits in educational system. Heaven, who doesn't even have enough personal to maintain their ships in field, without using prefabricated plug und play components or dedicated facilities. Hell, they don't even have enough educated personal to build something as simple as miniature fusion reactor fr their MDMs, i think everyone agrees such a MDM is lightyears away from programmed viruses able to override muscle memory of a person.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that until AZ and VC returned to Haven with the news about the "nano-virus weapon", no-one new how the assassins were "programmed". So IMHO, to say that Mesa was the preferred baddie because of their extensive bio-tech knowledge is flawed logic.

T&R
GJS

drothgery wrote:

Commodore Oakius wrote:I maintain Pierre didn't want to create the purges, it says in the text that after the first ones he had to give the mob more so he made more enemies of the people. He didn't want to create a reign of terror, but thats what it was when you didn't know if you were on the next list. I dont think he wanted any of that, he just couldn't see a way to stop it.

That's the thoughts of someone lying to himself. He embraced a government based on murder and tyranny from the very beginning. If the didn't think that was going to lead to purges, he's nuts.

He knew he was going to have to give the old government as a sacrificial lamb, but he didn't think it would escalte into what he had. He genuinely wanted reform and couldn't pull it off because he unknowingly awaken the bloodthirst in the mobs.
I am not saint the man was a saint, just that he didn't want it to go as far as it did. He wanted it to be boom change in power, kill the old leaders, lets make things better.

George J. Smith wrote:
Everyone seems to be forgetting that until AZ and VC returned to Haven with the news about the "nano-virus weapon", no-one new how the assassins were "programmed". So IMHO, to say that Mesa was the preferred baddie because of their extensive bio-tech knowledge is flawed logic.

T&R
GJS

Exactly, no one knew about the nano tech until they returned, so there was no way for Elizabeth to consider haven didn't have the tech to pull of the attack. They had no idea what caused the attacks, just that they happened.

Manpower had a grudge against thousands of people on Manticore. While you can make a case for Manpower trying to take out the Torch leadership, there is no obvious reason for Manpower to try to take out Honor and Webster at that particular time--both of them were busy with other things and hadn't had time to bother Manpower for years.

Manpower also had absolutely no reputation for committing assassinations. That wasn't Manpower's style. Haven did have that reputation. There was no reason to suspect Manpower of trying to assassinate Honor and Webster. The only obvious suspect for Honor's assassination was Haven. By association, the obvious suspect for Torch and Webster was also Haven.

Suggesting that Elizabeth should have suspected Manpower is presuming knowledge that the readers have and the characters didn't. Manpower was believed to be just a big corporation with lots of sleazy connections. It was not a covert operations network capable of deep undercover assassinations like this. That simply isn't the way anyone thought of Manpower, not even Manticore.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

drothgery wrote:He had the people who killed President Harris killed. Oscar St. Just was his #2 man from the very start. If that wasn't a sign that he was clearly intent on imposing a reign of terror from the very beginning, I don't know what is.

But these are not signs of a reign of terror. More signs of efficient, if some what bloodyminded, tidiness. It doesn't show him to be a man to create the reign of terror.
As for Oscar, sure he was a raving paranoiac, but did he ever cross Rob? Never. Never took a action that would contribute to the problems without discussion. He is partially to blame, his advise was problematic for Pierre, but he wasn't the direct cause either, even if he liked it the way it was. Pierre had to restrain him several times in the text.

I maintain Pierre didn't want to create the purges, it says in the text that after the first ones he had to give the mob more so he made more enemies of the people. He didn't want to create a reign of terror, but thats what it was when you didn't know if you were on the next list. I dont think he wanted any of that, he just couldn't see a way to stop it.

If I remember right, Rob Pierre embraced bloody revolution because he hated the Legislative government so much. As has been said, he embraced bloody revolution with both hands and he knew exactly who he had working with him. He had to know what St.Just and Cordelia were like when he offered them power. He was alright with the reign of terror that State Security enforced on the PRH. He had absolutely no problem killing any and everyone in his way for the path he wanted for Haven.

To say he didn't know or there wasn't that much blood spilled is being very disingenuous and not in line with the lore of the series at all. Rob Pierre was a bloody handed tyrant that ruled with an iron

hand.

Commodore Oakius wrote:

drothgery wrote:That's the thoughts of someone lying to himself. He embraced a government based on murder and tyranny from the very beginning. If the didn't think that was going to lead to purges, he's nuts.

He knew he was going to have to give the old government as a sacrificial lamb, but he didn't think it would escalte into what he had. He genuinely wanted reform and couldn't pull it off because he unknowingly awaken the bloodthirst in the mobs.
I am not saint the man was a saint, just that he didn't want it to go as far as it did. He wanted it to be boom change in power, kill the old leaders, lets make things better.

The leadership, the military, the planetary system leaders and anyone that looked to be a threat, the list goes on. State Security, under Rob Pierre's reign became a truly feared state organization on par with the KGB and its previous incarnations. A state sponsored organization based on using terror and fear to control the military and politicos. Remember how much in fear the members of the Haven navy were of State Sec. Rob Pierre wasn't loved by many, but feared and hated. He ruled through the applied use of terror and fear.

Zakharra wrote: If I remember right, Rob Pierre embraced bloody revolution because he hated the Legislative government so much. As has been said, he embraced bloody revolution with both hands and he knew exactly who he had working with him. He had to know what St.Just and Cordelia were like when he offered them power. He was alright with the reign of terror that State Security enforced on the PRH. He had absolutely no problem killing any and everyone in his way for the path he wanted for Haven.

To say he didn't know or there wasn't that much blood spilled is being very disingenuous and not in line with the lore of the series at all. Rob Pierre was a bloody handed tyrant that ruled with an iron

hand.

Bloody Revolution maybe, but I don't think he wanted the Reign of Terror that it spawned.
Yes he knew the type of people who were allied with him, he said so at the tennis court meeting, many were their for personal power.

I never said that he didn't know what was happening, or that there wasn't that much blood. I said he didn't want it to happen like it did, except for the intial bloodletting to do away with the old government. I think once they were gone he would have rathered got down to the reforms, but the mobs wanted more and he feared the mobs.

Zakharra wrote: The leadership, the military, the planetary system leaders and anyone that looked to be a threat, the list goes on. State Security, under Rob Pierre's reign became a truly feared state organization on par with the KGB and its previous incarnations. A state sponsored organization based on using terror and fear to control the military and politicos. Remember how much in fear the members of the Haven navy were of State Sec. Rob Pierre wasn't loved by many, but feared and hated. He ruled through the applied use of terror and fear.

The Navy feard them because of the circumstances, but remember, he was in favor of lessening the pressure on them when McQueen pushed it.

I am not saying Pierre was a great man in what he did, I am not disagreeing that he took actions that are wrong, I am saying that I feel that he didn't want to go that far, and wouldn't have if he had the option.

SWM wrote:Manpower had a grudge against thousands of people on Manticore. While you can make a case for Manpower trying to take out the Torch leadership, there is no obvious reason for Manpower to try to take out Honor and Webster at that particular time--both of them were busy with other things and hadn't had time to bother Manpower for years.

Manpower also had absolutely no reputation for committing assassinations. That wasn't Manpower's style. Haven did have that reputation. There was no reason to suspect Manpower of trying to assassinate Honor and Webster. The only obvious suspect for Honor's assassination was Haven. By association, the obvious suspect for Torch and Webster was also Haven.

Suggesting that Elizabeth should have suspected Manpower is presuming knowledge that the readers have and the characters didn't. Manpower was believed to be just a big corporation with lots of sleazy connections. It was not a covert operations network capable of deep undercover assassinations like this. That simply isn't the way anyone thought of Manpower, not even Manticore.

My thoughts exactly. I commented earlier that Honor's attempted assassination was the one that was throwing the Manticoran analysts off. The similarity of technique used in all three attacks led to the (not unreasonable) conclusion of them all being orchestrated by the same group. But in Honor's case the only suspect they had was Haven and therefore all of the other attacks were linked to Haven as well (even if the reasons given for the Torch attack weren't the most logical). Even Webster could have been a target for Manpower given how successful he was in airing the whole Manpower Incident on Old Terra but as far as anyone on Manticore knew, there was no reason to think that Manpower was going to attack Honor like that (or at all really).