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new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by The E   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:12 am

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Hutch wrote:Either way, the planet gets (at minimum) a modest economic boost without committing any real investment funds needed for other parts of their economy. What's not to love?


So those systems would get a bunch of stuff ripped from a decades-old SD, stuff that is probably less advanced than civilian-grade solarian stuff (and pretty certainly less advanced than civilian-grade Manticoran or Beowulfan stuff).

In other words, stuff that is going to be replaced as soon as feasible anyway, and that can't be relied upon due to maintenance issues. There are better, more direct ways of stimulating economies.
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:38 am

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JohnRoth wrote:I don't have it in machine-readable so I can't post the paragraph; the search term is probably "fusion reactors in the basement."


The only place "Fusion Reactors in the basement" appears is in Cauldron of Ghosts Chapter 50:

Cauldron of Ghosts
Chapter Fifty
wrote:Thandi nodded. Virtually all residential towers in any city would have their own fusion reactors in the basement. They didn’t cost that much, reactor mass was cheap, and it made sense to use a distributed power net for a city whose individual structures might house up to a quarter million people. And especially since those structures could become literal death traps if the power went down suddenly and unexpectedly. Connecting all the towers to a central grid gave the entire city a huge degree of redundancy, and even in an emergency that knocked out the entire grid, a tower’s dedicated reactor would keep its vital environmental systems and grav shafts on line. But it was still cheaper to build centralized power collection ground stations stations for orbital power satellites to fill the needs of things like industrial sites, public parks, space ports, and other major infrastructure. Reactor mass might be cheap, but sunlight came completely free of charge. But the need for it to be collected and distributed did create its own vulnerability.

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Last edited by Weird Harold on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Hutch   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:01 pm

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First, to Weird Harold....Ghosts of Chaos? GHOSTS OF CHAOS? Just what were you doing last night, Harold that killed off that many brain cells.... :twisted: 8-) ;)

OK,to business:


The E wrote:
Hutch wrote:Either way, the planet gets (at minimum) a modest economic boost without committing any real investment funds needed for other parts of their economy. What's not to love?


So those systems would get a bunch of stuff ripped from a decades-old SD, stuff that is probably less advanced than civilian-grade solarian stuff (and pretty certainly less advanced than civilian-grade Manticoran or Beowulfan stuff).

In other words, stuff that is going to be replaced as soon as feasible anyway, and that can't be relied upon due to maintenance issues. There are better, more direct ways of stimulating economies.


Well, a couple dozen or so pinnaces, shuttles, etc. that can significantly increase their ability to do off-planet industry and constuction for next to nothing, (even if decades-old technology) should be an improvement.

And decades-old medical equipment, if maintained, would lead to an uptick in lives saved over equipment that is perhaps centuries out of date.

And 'old' electronic devices are still useful if they are better than what you have.

Look, many of these systems are poor. While I am sure the SEM is going to do all they can, the Manties have (1) A war with the Solarian League, (2) and incipient war with the MAlignment and (3) An economy that took a huge hit in Oyster Bay, so anything that can be done to help boost the Talbott economies without causing further economic stress to the SKM is going to be welcome.

And any stimulus will help create the money supply they need to buy all the 'modern'stuff they need.

Consider it a 'bootstrap'.

IMHO as always.YMMV.
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Weird Harold   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:33 pm

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Hutch wrote:First, to Weird Harold....Ghosts of Chaos? GHOSTS OF CHAOS? Just what were you doing last night, Harold that killed off that many brain cells.... :twisted: 8-) ;)


I have no idea what you're talking about. :? :lol:

I blame it all on stupid fingers and lazy eyes. :lol:
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by n7axw   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:56 pm

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I think that Hutch has made an important point here. In addition, look at potential capital and sources of supply. Due to the war, the quadrant is cut off from trading sources in the SL, at least for the short term. Manticore will help some, but for the near to intermediate term, the bulk of her capital and what remains of her manufacturing will be absorbed by the war effort and rebuilding after Oyster Bay.

Places like Nuncio, Dresden and Split will need every bootstrap they can get. An aweful lot of the capital for building the Quadrant's economy will have to be raised from internal sources. There will be some from Manticore, but not as much as would have come in before the Yawata strike.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Direwolf18   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:27 pm

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The E wrote:
So those systems would get a bunch of stuff ripped from a decades-old SD, stuff that is probably less advanced than civilian-grade solarian stuff (and pretty certainly less advanced than civilian-grade Manticoran or Beowulfan stuff).

In other words, stuff that is going to be replaced as soon as feasible anyway, and that can't be relied upon due to maintenance issues. There are better, more direct ways of stimulating economies.


It's been stated a number of times that what the Solarians make is pretty darn good. Their manufacturing abilities aren't lacking, even their missile defense systems could be halfway decent if they were programmed correctly.
As weapon systems the SDs are totally useless no argument here, but they would probably be useful to some of the more impoverished systems in the Talbott Quadrant (IE Nuncio). Strap a few together and you could have a decent space platform. Park it in place and bam! Habitation module, as well as all the power you would ever need. Kinda like what the Russians did with the Admiral Kiznetsov. She spent years parked in port as a glorified power station. Hell Solarian medical science is pretty top notch, and places like Dresden are pretty behind the curve atm. In an ideal world Beowulf and Manticore would be able to churn out all the medical supplies they need, but they are a tad busy getting ready to shoot sollies.

Would digging through those SDs for scrap be worth a Manticorian's time? Absolutely not, would it be worth a Nuncian's time? Now THAT I think is a fair question.
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by stewart   » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:43 pm

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As noted in previous posts / other forums, the SD's are probably best used for scrap sources.
They may be good sources of intel if the computer systems have survived intact.
Small arms and spare / repair parts should be available from them.
Missile system are obsolete.
Grasers / lasers and point defense Lasers may be useful in short term.

Battle Cruisers may be useful as short-term space forts in Talbot Quadrent if interfaced with FTL Comms

Gladiator Class CA's appear from text evidence as approx. equivalent to RMN Starknights and could (with a tractored / deployed FTL buoy / drone provide the TQG a short term "Coast Guard" equivalent -- enough to deal with foolish pirates and do local commerce escort.

SLN DD's / CL's are probably used best as commerce inspection / messengers.

Older technology means possible as initial training vessels or manned by merchant experienced crews.

In any case, for any of the 12+ TQ systems that cannot have a regular RMN detachment or LAC Wing, a couple Gladiators and a couple DD's might help out until Manticore gets their shipbuilding back on line. RFC has already noted that the current merchant shipyards in TQ are not going to get upgraded any time soon.

-- Stewart
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Sheila   » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:57 am

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Hutch wrote:Folks, it sounds like you're figuring that these hulks have to be disassembled by next Tuesday. There isn't that big a rush and things tend not to rust in space.

Look, bring three Sollie SD's (ferry with minimal crews) to a system that is still behind in developing (say Nuncio or Pequod). Remove all missiles (since you have to load missiles it should not be hard to unload them) and "spike" most of the lasers/grazers. Deed them over to the planetary government and let them strip what they can immediately use (medical, computers, any number of other systems). Sell the pinnaces, shuttles, to companies that are dedicated to system industrial development (probably in partnership with Manty corporations as detailed in SftS, IIRC, who can help provide expertise).

Once that is done, the system can either retain the 'hollowed out' SD either in a 'scarecrow mode' as suggested above by lyonheart above, with minimal caretaker personnel, or sell them (perhaps to Manty or Grayson or even Haven/Andy/Erewhon/Maya) businesses for scrap--they may have the technology to bring to the sight to properly breakup a SD. Or let them float somewhere in the system for a few decades until you do have the capabilty to break them up. No rust, remember (OK, maybe minor micrometeorite damage).

Either way, the planet gets (at minimum) a modest economic boost without committing any real investment funds needed for other parts of their economy. What's not to love?



In those systems with minimum space infrastructure might be possible to us the hulls as the bases of temporary space stations. Gut the weapon systems, guidance systems, sensor arrays, etc. which make it a warship to free up space. Leave on line one fusion plant and the life support and a few other system critical systems. With minima systems the crewing requirements should be small. Most of the warehousing capability can be external of the hull so we are not talking about tearing out bulkheads and decks. The inside would be for housing people and the things people need.
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Zakharra   » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:57 am

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Sheila wrote:
Hutch wrote:Folks, it sounds like you're figuring that these hulks have to be disassembled by next Tuesday. There isn't that big a rush and things tend not to rust in space.

Look, bring three Sollie SD's (ferry with minimal crews) to a system that is still behind in developing (say Nuncio or Pequod). Remove all missiles (since you have to load missiles it should not be hard to unload them) and "spike" most of the lasers/grazers. Deed them over to the planetary government and let them strip what they can immediately use (medical, computers, any number of other systems). Sell the pinnaces, shuttles, to companies that are dedicated to system industrial development (probably in partnership with Manty corporations as detailed in SftS, IIRC, who can help provide expertise).

Once that is done, the system can either retain the 'hollowed out' SD either in a 'scarecrow mode' as suggested above by lyonheart above, with minimal caretaker personnel, or sell them (perhaps to Manty or Grayson or even Haven/Andy/Erewhon/Maya) businesses for scrap--they may have the technology to bring to the sight to properly breakup a SD. Or let them float somewhere in the system for a few decades until you do have the capabilty to break them up. No rust, remember (OK, maybe minor micrometeorite damage).

Either way, the planet gets (at minimum) a modest economic boost without committing any real investment funds needed for other parts of their economy. What's not to love?



In those systems with minimum space infrastructure might be possible to us the hulls as the bases of temporary space stations. Gut the weapon systems, guidance systems, sensor arrays, etc. which make it a warship to free up space. Leave on line one fusion plant and the life support and a few other system critical systems. With minima systems the crewing requirements should be small. Most of the warehousing capability can be external of the hull so we are not talking about tearing out bulkheads and decks. The inside would be for housing people and the things people need.



Hutch makes a very good point, as do you. I'm not sure for hard it would be to bolt several SLN SDs together to form a circle (kind of like logs stuck in the ground to form a circle), or some shape, and between those hulls, start adding warehouse moduels or something. For a system that is poor, even a few SD hulls could have immense value in the computing systems (main computer and sensors), medical systems, the fusion plants (get a few ships dedicated to stripping out the physical plants, then make the feed lines to fuel tanks rather than try and rip them out of the hull. It saves time and effort). Plus the hull and remaining systems (shuttles) can be used for scrap or the ship turned into a useable space station until something better can be made. For a poor planet, even a SLN SD fusion plant can be useful. It might not be intended for civilian use, but it would be useable by a planet that doesn't have access to anything better. As people have been saying, the ships captured might not be of any use for Manticore or the RH, but for the Talbott Cluster and maybe even Silesia, they could be very useful as part of a bootstrapping effort to improve the system's productivity and standard of living. They could probably make money selling things like the fusion plants to some of the systems of the Verge that doesn't have anything better.
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by drothgery   » Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:36 pm

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This is your annual reminder that trying to use a ship of the wall as anything other than a ship of the wall is extremely, extremely inefficient. To the point where it's more practical to build whatever you actually want from scratch even if you need to build the shipyard first. And SLN SDs are really, really bad ships of the wall.

Despite the wishes of the Honorverse's pack rats, there really is nothing useful that can be done with them. Even their present use as improvised prison hulks is only temporary, because Manticore doesn't have any place else to keep them yet (the POW camp that held the survivors of Tourville's fleet is far too small).
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