Talbott Quadrant government and parliament...

Daryl wrote:Getting back to the original topic, I can see a parallel to a previous comment of mine and the Talbott Quadrant politics. If Queen Elizabeth 111 of Manticore allows that aspect of her being to influence her behaviour as Empress Elizabeth it could cause resentment in the newer members. As I said, even being partisan regarding the sporting field can give the (probably true) impression that some members are more equal than others.

I agree, and it will depend on the situation.
However, that being said, since the majority of the power will be in the Imperial Parliment's hands, her official governmental actions will be limited. Her wishes, on the other hand, and her public statements could very easily sour the Talbotters if those opinion trend against them and more in favor of the Kingdom, not the Empire. I also think certain allowences will be made by the Talbotters because she is naturally going to favor what was origianlly her only domain, even if slightly.

Daryl wrote:Sorry, you are technically correct, however I personally regard Betty in London as the Queen of England not Australia, because of a couple of matters. Firstly she is not an Australian citizen, and secondly when England and Australia meet in battle on the sporting field she barracks for the English and gives them imperial honours on the rare occasion that they win.

Two problems with that :-

[1] She isn't an English citizen either! But then legally speaking neither is anyone else!
[2] Excluding the Order of the Garter, Order of the Thistle, Royal Victorian Order and the Order of Merit, all honours are offered solely on the basis of the sovereign being so advised by her relevant government. So if your complaint is that the Australian cricket team doesn't get knighthoods when they beat the English team, you need to take that up with the Australian government!

I do think it's interesting however that you're using the Tebbit Test to determinate her nationality!

Commodore Oakius wrote:

Daryl wrote:Getting back to the original topic, I can see a parallel to a previous comment of mine and the Talbott Quadrant politics. If Queen Elizabeth 111 of Manticore allows that aspect of her being to influence her behaviour as Empress Elizabeth it could cause resentment in the newer members. As I said, even being partisan regarding the sporting field can give the (probably true) impression that some members are more equal than others.

I agree, and it will depend on the situation.
However, that being said, since the majority of the power will be in the Imperial Parliment's hands, her official governmental actions will be limited. Her wishes, on the other hand, and her public statements could very easily sour the Talbotters if those opinion trend against them and more in favor of the Kingdom, not the Empire. I also think certain allowences will be made by the Talbotters because she is naturally going to favor what was origianlly her only domain, even if slightly.

Guys, yes, the Star Kingdom and the Star Empire are entirely different polities, and so are their governments, in terms of the Star Empire's Constitution. However, the situation is very similar to that of the United Kingdom - although the two governments are different legal entities, they are in fact the same in terms of their makeup. Also, since that is true, the Star Kingdom's government acts as the Star Empire's government for the time being. I haven't seen any indication as yet that Grantville intends to (or already have) appointed any ministers from the Talbott Quadrant to his cabinet - when he does, will they only sit in on meetings dealing with Imperial affairs, or will they attend all meetings of the Grantville cabinet?

hanuman wrote:Guys, yes, the Star Kingdom and the Star Empire are entirely different polities, and so are their governments, in terms of the Star Empire's Constitution. However, the situation is very similar to that of the United Kingdom - although the two governments are different legal entities, they are in fact the same in terms of their makeup. Also, since that is true, the Star Kingdom's government acts as the Star Empire's government for the time being. I haven't seen any indication as yet that Grantville intends to (or already have) appointed any ministers from the Talbott Quadrant to his cabinet - when he does, will they only sit in on meetings dealing with Imperial affairs, or will they attend all meetings of the Grantville cabinet?

The impression I got was that, strictly speaking, the Grantville government is the government of the Old Star Kingdom. Talbott has its own prime minister - that would be Joachim Alquezar - and Cabinet, which are responsible for affairs in the Talbott Quadrant. Meanwhile, Her Majesty's interests are represented by Lady Dame Estelle Matsuko (God I love saying that!) and military affairs are dealt with jointly by the Minister of War (Henri Krietzmann, dealing with the local military forces, such as the Nuncio Space Force) and Augustus Khumalo as Station Commander.

Now, because Talbott is so new to things, yes, the Grantville government will be helping to guide policy for the TQ for the next several decades, but this is an empire, where separate polities have separate governments.

And if I'm wrong, may His Celeryness come along and correct me!

roseandheather wrote:
The impression I got was that, ... military affairs are dealt with jointly by the Minister of War (Henri Krietzmann, dealing with the local military forces, such as the Nuncio Space Force) and Augustus Khumalo as Station Commander.

Now, because Talbott is so new to things, yes, the Grantville government will be helping to guide policy for the TQ for the next several decades, but this is an empire, where separate polities have separate governments.

And if I'm wrong, may His Celeryness come along and correct me!

Interesting, Rose. I hadn't really absorbed that before reading through SfS and SoF. My mental picture had pictured the Talbott Quadrant government as subordinate to the SEM's cabinet, but I think you're right. The Quadrant's government is co-equal to the Star Kingdom's cabinet, and both are subordinate to the Imperial government.

I guess it's my upbringing coming through- I thought of the Quadrant as a state rather than a nation.

Does this mean the Quadrant can determine foreign policies with its neighbors? Or would those have to be ratified by the Imperial Government?

For example, say Talbot wants to negotiate a treaty with the (Post war! ) Kingdom of Meyers. Do they:

A- Negotiate a treaty and approve it in the Quadrant Government, with Lady Dame Estelle Matsuko's advice.

B- Negotiate a treaty and approve it with Matsuko's advice and consent.

C- Request the Imperial Government negotiate and approve the treaty for the SEM as a whole.

D- Something else.

What happens if the Quadrant cabinet falls out with Her Majesty's representative? Can they force him/her to be recalled, or can the Empress dissolve the Quadrant cabinet?

Please point me to an infodump if I've missed it.

Norm.bone wrote:Interesting, Rose. I hadn't really absorbed that before reading through SfS and SoF. My mental picture had pictured the Talbott Quadrant government as subordinate to the SEM's cabinet, but I think you're right. The Quadrant's government is co-equal to the Star Kingdom's cabinet, and both are subordinate to the Imperial government.

I guess it's my upbringing coming through- I thought of the Quadrant as a state rather than a nation.

If you want to think of it that way, you can consider it like this. There is an Imperial government (Federal gov't), and a planetary government (the states), but in between those two levels, there is regional grouping. It is kind of like if, in addition to what there is now in the US, New England had its own regional government, and the West Coast, and the Mid West, etc.

Norm.bone wrote:Does this mean the Quadrant can determine foreign policies with its neighbors? Or would those have to be ratified by the Imperial Government?

For example, say Talbot wants to negotiate a treaty with the (Post war! ) Kingdom of Meyers. Do they:

A- Negotiate a treaty and approve it in the Quadrant Government, with Lady Dame Estelle Matsuko's advice.

B- Negotiate a treaty and approve it with Matsuko's advice and consent.

C- Request the Imperial Government negotiate and approve the treaty for the SEM as a whole.

D- Something else.

At a guess, inform the Imperial government and get approval, then negotiate a treaty with the advice and consent of Estelle Matsuko (or her eventual replacement) as the voice of the Empire, and then send it to Imperial Parliament for approval/acceptance. I am sure it is more complicated than that, but...

Norm.bone wrote:What happens if the Quadrant cabinet falls out with Her Majesty's representative? Can they force him/her to be recalled, or can the Empress dissolve the Quadrant cabinet?

Please point me to an infodump if I've missed it.

Probably the same thing as happens when the Star Kingdom cabinet falls out with Her Majesty, as we saw with Prime Minister Ass-hat...I mean High Ridge.

I would assume that foreign policy is one of the few areas which are controlled by the Imperial government rather than the Talbott Quadrant government. The Imperial government does not interfere with internal governance (unless it conflicts with the relatively few overall imperial laws), but relations between the Imperial subunits, and between the Empire and foreign states, are the realm of the Imperial government.

SWM wrote:I would assume that foreign policy is one of the few areas which are controlled by the Imperial government rather than the Talbott Quadrant government. The Imperial government does not interfere with internal governance (unless it conflicts with the relatively few overall imperial laws), but relations between the Imperial subunits, and between the Empire and foreign states, are the realm of the Imperial government.

Agreed. Elizabeth I might appoint Dame Estelle as her plenipotentiary wrt foreign affairs in the Quadrant region, but any and all agreements with other sovereign states will need to be ratified by the Imperial Parliament (probably the Lords).

Norm.bone wrote:

roseandheather wrote:
The impression I got was that, ... military affairs are dealt with jointly by the Minister of War (Henri Krietzmann, dealing with the local military forces, such as the Nuncio Space Force) and Augustus Khumalo as Station Commander.

Now, because Talbott is so new to things, yes, the Grantville government will be helping to guide policy for the TQ for the next several decades, but this is an empire, where separate polities have separate governments.

And if I'm wrong, may His Celeryness come along and correct me!

Interesting, Rose. I hadn't really absorbed that before reading through SfS and SoF. My mental picture had pictured the Talbott Quadrant government as subordinate to the SEM's cabinet, but I think you're right. The Quadrant's government is co-equal to the Star Kingdom's cabinet, and both are subordinate to the Imperial government.

I guess it's my upbringing coming through- I thought of the Quadrant as a state rather than a nation.

Does this mean the Quadrant can determine foreign policies with its neighbors? Or would those have to be ratified by the Imperial Government?

For example, say Talbot wants to negotiate a treaty with the (Post war! ) Kingdom of Meyers. Do they:

A- Negotiate a treaty and approve it in the Quadrant Government, with Lady Dame Estelle Matsuko's advice.

B- Negotiate a treaty and approve it with Matsuko's advice and consent.

C- Request the Imperial Government negotiate and approve the treaty for the SEM as a whole.

D- Something else.

What happens if the Quadrant cabinet falls out with Her Majesty's representative? Can they force him/her to be recalled, or can the Empress dissolve the Quadrant cabinet?

Please point me to an infodump if I've missed it.

It would probably depend on what type of treaty.

Mutual defense or military assistance; Imperial

Trade or school exchange or disaster assistance locals except for major trade treaties eg NAFTA

US state governors travel to foreign nations all the time to negotiate trade deals or promote there states products. EG Grayson negotiating with Montana to buy Montanan beef.

I think a lot of people are hitting around the target without quite hitting the bull's-eye.

The Star Empire of Manticore consists of legally coequal federal units. At this time, there are only two such units: the Star Kingdom of Manticore and the Talbott Quadrant. Both of those units have effectively complete local autonomy, but both are completely subject to the Star Empire of Manticore in the spheres specifically reserved to the "central government."

You may, if you wish, think of this as being something akin to the pre-Civil War US, in that specific powers are granted to the Imperial Government whereas all other legal matters are left up to the federal units. So, for example, the Star Kingdom and the Talbott Quadrant could enact different minimum-wage-equivalent legislation. They could adopt different regulations on child labor, and on environmental matters. They could not declare war, they could not negotiate political treaties with another sovereign star nation, they could not enact limiting legislation on interstellar trade, and they could not enact any legislation which contravened the provisions of the Imperial Constitution, including (especially) its limitations on imperial taxation and franchise qualification and the human rights provisions.

So the Talbott Quadrant will elect a Parliament which will sit in Spindle. That Parliament will be empowered to pass legislation initiated by citizens of the Quadrant dealing with anything not specifically prohibited to its jurisdiction by the Imperial Constitution. Any of its laws or regulations which (pretty much by definition) are going to have interstellar implications (that is, they will be promulgated to deal with the needs and desires of multiple star systems) will be subject to judicial challenge from outside the Quadrant's own judiciary only if it is their constitutionality under the Imperial Constitution which is in question.

The Imperial Parliament powers/responsibilities will include: the defense of the Star Empire; the diplomatic relations and foreign policy of the Star Empire; the passage of the Imperial budget; the issuance of the Imperial currency; the regulation of interstellar trade, both external (with other star nations) and internal (between member star systems of the Star Empire); the decision to annex/admit any future star systems to the Star Empire; and the enactment and enforcement of whatever Empire-level laws and regulations as may be required to discharge its responsibilities under the Imperial Constitution. This last point, obviously, would also cover apportionment of seats in the Imperial Parliament.

We're talking about a very complex edifice, a collection of institutions at both the imperial and the local level, so I'm not going to try to nail it down a whole lot more clearly than that at this point. As an example of how this would work, however, let's look at the Royal Manticoran Navy.

Because the Imperial Constitution places the burden of imperial defense on the Imperial Government (i.e., the Imperial Parliament), the existing SKM's Admiralty will find itself reporting to the imperial government (once everything is up and running) and not to the government of the Old Star Kingdom. Decisions about the navy — personnel, numbers of ships, deployment policies, etc. — will be made at the imperial level, in response to the imperial cabinet, and the Imperial Parliament will enact the necessary naval budget each year. The naval budget will be combined with all of the other Imperial Parliament's expenses into the Imperial Budget, and the Imperial Parliament will determine what portion of the total budget each unit of the Star Empire is responsible for. That is, if the Old Star Kingdom represents 75% of the total IGP (Imperial Gross Product), then the Old Star Kingdom will be responsible for funding 75% of the imperial budget. Precisely how the Old Star Kingdom goes about raising those revenues is an internal matter for the Old Star Kingdom to arrange as it chooses, with the understanding that any citizen who does not pay imperial taxes does not have the imperial franchise.

It's important to note here that the Imperial Constitution's provisions for the structure of the government — that is, of the cabinet, the cabinet's function, and the cabinet's relationship with the Crown — is a very closely based on that of the original Star Kingdom of Manticore. What this means is that Elizabeth will be no more of a figurehead on the imperial level than she has been in the SKM. She will be both head of state and head of government, and Dame Estelle, as her representative in the Talbott Quadrant, is effectively the "President" of the Quadrant. The Quadrant's PM is the most powerful politician in the Quadrant as the leader of the majority in the Talbott Quadrant Parliament; he is not the Quadrant's "head of state," even on the local level, however. While it is his responsibility and the prerogative to administer and govern the Quadrant in all those areas in which the Quadrant has local autonomy, and while Dame Estelle (or her successor) cannot overrule him or his Parliament in those matters of local autonomy, he is secondary to Elizabeth's representative in any matter which moves beyond that local autonomy and into the area of the Quadrant's collective legal relationship with the Imperial Government. Legislation governing matters of local autonomy can become law without the Crown Governor's signature; legislation enacted in accordance with decisions of the Imperial Parliament in respect to those areas relegated to its authority cannot become law without the Crown Governor's signature.

Do not try to find a close terrestrial parallel/model for what is being described here. There are bits and pieces of DNA from several historical systems included in the Star Empire's Constitution, but the Constitution itself is unique to Manticore's experience and needs.