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What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:30 pm

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Duckk wrote:
BTW: In all of DW's HH books, if something (ship, pinnace, missile, whatever) is in hyper it stays in hyper until you do something _active_ (involving the HG) to get it back to n-space, or so I understand it. In EF's ToF, when the HG broke the ship dropped back into n-space. Any explanations?


The hyper generator was failing, so the failsafes took the ship out of hyper before it failed completely and was rendered inoperable.

It was also close enough to Mesa that they could have returned via impeller in real space, hence the computer system knew that that was the most survivable failure mode. Well, excepting some minor political details it was the most survivable. But the whole mechanical bit was kind of bonkers.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:27 pm

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FYI in the thread SPOILER - finding the torch wormhole's destination David Weber implied in passing that an SD's hyper generation is "just about the size of [a] dispatch boat".

That's pretty big, but still a small faction of the volume/mass of an SD. Seems you should be able to fit in a 50% bigger one without too much problem. (Especially if that's 50% greater volume; which would be a much smaller growth in each linear dimension)
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:19 pm

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smr wrote:The real question what are ramifications of the streak drive. This innovation period is like the time of jet before breaking the sound barrier and the age after breaking the sound barrier. Very shortly after breaking the sound barrier, we were developing planes that were going at multiple times the speed of sound. We had the Blackbird. How many hyperbands are the GA and MesaAlign going to break. Who is going to create the blackbird of the day.

Sarge

This is indeed the core question of the thread.
The streak drive is specifically stated to be comparatively larger so the question is wether the compromise becomes worth it or not.

Guaranteed is that there will be GA streak drive ships, no question about it. The question is what types of ships with it there will be. Courier ships, no doubt about those.

But then it becomes problematic, on the one hand, smaller ships that can "run" faster is always an advantage and while the offset is greater, they wouldn´t be designed for maximum battle-ability but for a mix between strategic mobility and combat power, but how big would the offset be? Would it be worth it?

And then for large ships, where the generator is a comparatively smaller part of the total, but at the same time, the big ships are already having quite a noticeable sizecreep because their very reason for existance is to have the most combat ability possible.

Strategic mobility can be a BIG and very dangerous killer, but if the compromise of adding a "streak drive" mod lowers a SDs combat power by 10%, then it may not be worth it.

My own first reaction, if the size penalty is indeed a doubling, is leaning towards having something like a 1M ton BC as THE streak drive ship, big enough to kill any light ship, fast enough to easily outrun any SDs, and large enough to defend against quite heavy firepower and so on...

Then, you use them in couples as fast scouts and in large packs as a strategic "knife in the back" that can run circles around any defenders, and in large enough packs are still capable of hitting even fairly well defended locations, as long as they dont have massive mobile defenses.
Lets say you build 60 of them, and another 20 depot ships with streak drives, then you send off 5 packs of 12 each with 4 depot ships to provide assistance and more importantly offship pods to allow massive first strikes. Send those out to raid 2-3 systems each in their own areas, then repeat, if a system has heavy defense, launch your first strike at max range and leave.
Very soon, it will be hard for an opponent to know where to put their fleet units and how to defend at all.
And even if they figure out where the fast BC group will go to strike next, even their couriers probably wont get there in time to warn them.


Possibly also something smaller, a more limited heavy scout, maybe 25-33% larger than a Roland, with similar combat ability. With David´s stated dislike for specialisation, i doubt this though.


In the comparison you took from the real world history, the SR-71 never became the fighterplane it was meant to be, but it became a valuable recon plane, the Valkyrie bomber was utterly dropped, while the counter to the Valkyrie, the MiG-25 was completed and while having massive drawbacks was later refined into the extremely deadly MiG-31(even if the latter dropped a bit of dashspeed to achieve it´s ability overall).
So where the development goes will be interesting.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:30 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:
smr wrote:The real question what are ramifications of the streak drive. This innovation period is like the time of jet before breaking the sound barrier and the age after breaking the sound barrier. Very shortly after breaking the sound barrier, we were developing planes that were going at multiple times the speed of sound. We had the Blackbird. How many hyperbands are the GA and MesaAlign going to break. Who is going to create the blackbird of the day.

Sarge

This is indeed the core question of the thread.
The streak drive is specifically stated to be comparatively larger so the question is wether the compromise becomes worth it or not.

Guaranteed is that there will be GA streak drive ships, no question about it. The question is what types of ships with it there will be. Courier ships, no doubt about those.

But then it becomes problematic, on the one hand, smaller ships that can "run" faster is always an advantage and while the offset is greater, they wouldn´t be designed for maximum battle-ability but for a mix between strategic mobility and combat power, but how big would the offset be? Would it be worth it?

And then for large ships, where the generator is a comparatively smaller part of the total, but at the same time, the big ships are already having quite a noticeable sizecreep because their very reason for existance is to have the most combat ability possible.

Strategic mobility can be a BIG and very dangerous killer, but if the compromise of adding a "streak drive" mod lowers a SDs combat power by 10%, then it may not be worth it.

(snip)


As far as military units are concerned, I suspect it'll be pretty much everything. They're about to get into a commerce raiding mode where moving fleet units around fast is going to be essential.

One question is time. I give Bolthole at least 6 months to build enough prototypes to put it into manufacturing, probably closer to a year. In that time I suspect that they'll be building ships with extra volume around the existing hyper generator so they can refit with the new hyper generators.

The interesting thing will be the effect on civilian shipping. If the Mesan version gives them the ability to go two levels higher, then possibly they could make one that would let commercial shipping go one level higher. Allowing new freighers to cut around 20% off their transit times is another one of those game changers: that 20% will more than make up for having slightly less cargo carrying capacity.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by drothgery   » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:05 am

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JohnRoth wrote:The interesting thing will be the effect on civilian shipping. If the Mesan version gives them the ability to go two levels higher, then possibly they could make one that would let commercial shipping go one level higher. Allowing new freighers to cut around 20% off their transit times is another one of those game changers: that 20% will more than make up for having slightly less cargo carrying capacity.

Not really. The streak drive hyper generator is definitely more volume and mass intensive than a standard military-grade hyper generator, and military-grade hyper generators are rarely used for commercial shipping even though they're well-understood and quite safe. Unless there prove to be economies in the mass-produced version of streak drive hyper generators that don't exist with military-grade ones, I can't see them used much in commercial shipping (of passengers or freight). It's more likley that streak drive equipped commercial ships will replace military hyper-generator equipped commercial ships for time-critical passengers and cargo eventually.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by psy9o   » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:53 am

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The question that has been bothering me is whether or not a strike drive is simply a new type of hyper generators. Remember that in the books streak drive is simply a term used by Mesans to describe their new hyper capabilities. The "streak drive" probably also consists of upgrades in sensor capabilities and particle shielding. It is said numerous times in the HH and spin-offs that safe hyper capable ship were not possible for a long time because of the limited sensor range in hyper that lead to a lot of ships being lost to simple navigational errors. Since everything gets closer together the higher you go in the hyper bands it is reasonable that particle density and limited sensor range was also a big factor in ships being unable to travel in hyperspace. I mean it is pointless to have a hyper generator that can take you into the higher hyper bands if you can only stay there for a limited time because of the particle density since your ship is going to need to much time back in the docks for refits to be effective, and if you don't upgrade your sensor range you are going to lose to much ships to navigational errors.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streak Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by Werrf   » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:47 am

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Mitchell, Esq. wrote:Simos's greatest value is that he can verify that what was previously believed impossible is, indeed, possible...and he can provide mathematical verification of at least some portion of his assertions.

Going back a ways, I know, but I wonder if this might put Manticore into the same position Grayson was at the beginning of their friendship - they know it's possible, but nobody will tell them how, so they come up with their own design which could turn out to be superior to the Mesan one.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by Kytheros   » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:50 am

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psy9o wrote:The question that has been bothering me is whether or not a strike drive is simply a new type of hyper generators. Remember that in the books streak drive is simply a term used by Mesans to describe their new hyper capabilities. The "streak drive" probably also consists of upgrades in sensor capabilities and particle shielding. It is said numerous times in the HH and spin-offs that safe hyper capable ship were not possible for a long time because of the limited sensor range in hyper that lead to a lot of ships being lost to simple navigational errors. Since everything gets closer together the higher you go in the hyper bands it is reasonable that particle density and limited sensor range was also a big factor in ships being unable to travel in hyperspace. I mean it is pointless to have a hyper generator that can take you into the higher hyper bands if you can only stay there for a limited time because of the particle density since your ship is going to need to much time back in the docks for refits to be effective, and if you don't upgrade your sensor range you are going to lose to much ships to navigational errors.

Those 'navigational errors' were primarily ships flying into grav waves with their impellers active.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by Wodan   » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:29 am

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We should keep in mind that the current streak drive is developed without benefit of the Manticoran micro fusion bottle (etc) technology.
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Re: What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?
Post by Duckk   » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:40 am

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Wodan wrote:We should keep in mind that the current streak drive is developed without benefit of the Manticoran micro fusion bottle (etc) technology.


Why should it matter? You don't put hyper generators on drones or missiles, where the micro fusion plants show up.
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