David Weber on Frigates, Part 3

[quote="Roguevictory"]Yeah I always wondered why so much of the RMN was based off the old RN system but Hnorverse frigates were so weak when RN frigates covered so many roles.

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It appears, rather (surprise, surprise) that the Honorverse classifications are more based on the USN post-WWI / post-WWII classifications. The Frigate designation falling in the re-alignment / re-class after VietNam. The old DLG classifications were converted to DDG's and CG's (CL). The old DE's were re-classified as FF's.
Most of the Perry-Class FF's (FFG-7) are now transferred to allied navies as they, like the FF's in the Honorverse served primarily as ASW and outer-zone AAW. They, like the FF's in the Honorverse, had significantly less armor and weaker armaments than a Spruance or Burke DD.

The US does have ships the equivalent of European or Asian FF's -- they are the USCG Medium and High-Endurance Cutters. Much lighter armor and armament more appropriate for dealing with smugglers than opposing DD's.

Honorverse FF's follow the same pattern -- for smaller star-nations, it's not what they want, but more what they can (1) afford, (2) man and (3) effectively operate.

In WWII, Britain operated several frigates and corvettes because she needed multiple hulls at sea in escort duty. As the war progressed, most were not replace with same but rather more capable hulls.

-- Stewart

Yeah but unless there's been some change I haven't heard about isn't there a program to develop a frigate size LCS, or a frigate size replacement for the LCS since the LCS quota has been cut down due to among other things survivability issues and the lack of sufficient weaponry to take on a warship?

Hutch wrote:Since this thread has returned from the dead, I would like to add one comment.

It is well-established that the MWW does not see a place for Frigates in the Honorverse at the present time.

So, of course, in Cauldron of Ghosts the only major combat actions is performed by.....RTN Frigates.

I'm grinning even as I type this.

Frigates are probably fine for giving out tickets to civilians. In system or in other systems. That is about all. Whoever hasn't seen that writing just hasn't been looking at the wall.

Modern Navy frigates are real combatants that can take out a lot of targets before being destroyed and might even escape. They are good for hunting subs. That is not the case in the Honorverse including hunting spider drive vessels.

saber964 wrote:

SWM wrote:A bit of an aside, but I believe the prefix designation for frigates is FF. (Not that it really matters. )

That is based on the American designation system. In Europe most of the navies use only a single letter. eg
F Frigate
D Destroyer
C Cruiser

The US system came out because of the Washington treaty in 1922 to differentiate between light and heavy cruisers. Look at the series of cruiser hull numbers. The system was expanded during and after WWII to differentiate between ship types.

Hutch wrote:Since this thread has returned from the dead, I would like to add one comment.

It is well-established that the MWW does not see a place for Frigates in the Honorverse at the present time.

So, of course, in Cauldron of Ghosts the only major combat actions is performed by.....RTN Frigates.

I'm grinning even as I type this.

Really? I would think that the combat around Hancock and Neue Rostock towers would constitute major combat action, yes no? Now if you had said major naval combat action, I'd have to agree, although the frigates did damn little combat themselves - one shot up a bunch of lifeboats, and the other acted as a body guard.

jgnfld wrote:Modern Navy frigates are real combatants that can take out a lot of targets before being destroyed and might even escape. They are good for hunting subs. That is not the case in the Honorverse including spider drive vessels.

Honestly I think the meaning of the term frigate has probably varied more over history then any other warship classification and its meaning across different science fiction settings varies as much, if not more, then it has IRL but yeah a modern navy frigate isn't something to be taken lightly.

Roguevictory wrote:

jgnfld wrote:Modern Navy frigates are real combatants that can take out a lot of targets before being destroyed and might even escape. They are good for hunting subs. That is not the case in the Honorverse including spider drive vessels.

Honestly I think the meaning of the term frigate has probably varied more over history then any other warship classification and its meaning across different science fiction settings varies as much, if not more, then it has IRL but yeah a modern navy frigate isn't something to be taken lightly.

Though some taken more seriously that others. There's a fair difference (more than just 3 decades tech improvements) between a USN Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate (4,100 tons) and the French/Italian FREMM frigates (6,000 tons). The newer FREMMs are bigger, longer ranged, and carry a lot more weapons than the OHPs did (even back before their SAM launcher was removed because it's missiles were retired)

Just one more example of how the term frigate has varied so much. Heck, compare the French FREMMs to the French Horizon-class frigate and you see significant difference even within the same navy within a couple years.

Roguevictory wrote:Yeah but unless there's been some change I haven't heard about isn't there a program to develop a frigate size LCS, or a frigate size replacement for the LCS since the LCS quota has been cut down due to among other things survivability issues and the lack of sufficient weaponry to take on a warship?

The Little Crappy Ship?

Even the coasties don't want that POS. A modern coast guard cutter is better suited for the LCS mission than the POS that they bought.

kzt wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:Yeah but unless there's been some change I haven't heard about isn't there a program to develop a frigate size LCS, or a frigate size replacement for the LCS since the LCS quota has been cut down due to among other things survivability issues and the lack of sufficient weaponry to take on a warship?

The Little Crappy Ship?

Even the coasties don't want that POS. A modern coast guard cutter is better suited for the LCS mission than the POS that they bought.

Yeah which is why the program was cut to 32 ships and the US navy was ordered to find a more capable replacement for the rest of the initially planned LCS hulls. If what I read is correct the decision about what to use for the replacement has been made but not publicly announced yet.

Roguevictory wrote:Yeah which is why the program was cut to 32 ships and the US navy was ordered to find a more capable replacement for the rest of the initially planned LCS hulls. If what I read is correct the decision about what to use for the replacement has been made but not publicly announced yet.

Eventually South Florida divers are going to get a few dozen more wrecks to dive in a decade or two. Exact numbers depending on how many get themselves sunk trying to play Navy. That seems to be the highest and best use of these, other then towing the entire house armed services committee on a water skiing trip. Too bad the damn things cost a billion dollars each when you include the still missing "mission modules".