****A Call to Insurrection Spoiler****

The laws of the colony got changed.
Who got what as far what was included in the patents of nobility is still an open question.
So is if any of the people who were on-hand to greet the Jason when it finally arrived at Manticore were included in that nobility. Also would have been a question of how much of the land & or resources distributed to the new nobility would have been other than what the families already had. We don't know how the initial distribution of land/resources were carried out when the Jason arrived. There had to have been something, we don't know what it was.

I am guessing that the Board of Directors would have held any undistributed or unpurchased land as corporate assets and reserves. With the transition to Monarchy, that would have become Crown Lands with various seasides for government operations and things like schools.

We also don't know if there was any reaching back to Earth to find heirs of plague victims or would that not count at that stage of colonization? Of the people on the Jason, it was a long time though for anybody who came with the people who met the Jason and had done the onsite surveys and initial layout and building of Landing there probably would have been heirs in the current legal sense. Also from a practical approach, the original Corporate charter/bylaws could have spelled -this is a star nation and can set it’s own laws- out that persons related to the colonists who remains on Earth (and their decedents) would not be eligible for inheritance from Manticore. At the time Manticore colony left Earth it would have been vastly difficult to handle any sort of probate at the Manticore system to include (or even find out about) any potential heirs later living on Earth….so put a cork in it legally in the Colony laws. What happens AFTER the invention of a practical hyper-drive and semi-regular interstellar commerce is a differnt story.

Post Plague, and with the creation of the Monarchy and the looking for immigration of people to rebuild and recover, the laws were changed from the original Colony Documents and spelled out rights, and status and other things for the new people coming as well as the setting down the way nobility and he bicameral legislature was supposed to work. We have no idea how much changed, but we have one small slice of that from “A Beautiful Friendship” (the novel length version) as to the status, rights, obligations and other things of the new people and where they fit into the population.

So far we don't have enough to evaluate how things like property escheating to the Crown in the cases of no heirs of a branch of the nobility or such matters as the disestablishment of a patent of nobility for things like Treason or the kind of criminal activity we saw Baroness Crystal Pine was up to

Brigade XO wrote:We also don't know if there was any reaching back to Earth to find heirs of plague victims or would that not count at that stage of colonization?

Manticore is 512 light-years from Earth. Travelling at 0.6c in n-space, Jason took over 850 years to reach the MBS. And in that time period, Earth also had the Final War, which killed a lot of people and also scrambled any records.

That's not to say there wouldn't be a descendant. But it might equally be like asking us to find a descendant of Gengis Khan today, and it's about the same span of time.

At the time Manticore colony left Earth it would have been vastly difficult to handle any sort of probate at the Manticore system to include (or even find out about) any potential heirs later living on Earth….so put a cork in it legally in the Colony laws. What happens AFTER the invention of a practical hyper-drive and semi-regular interstellar commerce is a differnt story.

It's possible.

Post Plague, and with the creation of the Monarchy and the looking for immigration of people to rebuild and recover, the laws were changed from the original Colony Documents and spelled out rights, and status and other things for the new people coming as well as the setting down the way nobility and he bicameral legislature was supposed to work. We have no idea how much changed, but we have one small slice of that from “A Beautiful Friendship” (the novel length version) as to the status, rights, obligations and other things of the new people and where they fit into the population.

And the Harringtons were recently-arrived immigrants from Meyerdahl.

Reading the novel version of ABF and the other took books in in my to-do list for before volume 4 comes out later this year.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's not to say there wouldn't be a descendant. But it might equally be like asking us to find a descendant of Gengis Khan today, and it's about the same span of time.

I am wondering if you mean that it is all too easy to find a descendant if Genghis Khan today; the problem is that statistically there is a continent full of them. What would be really difficult would be finding which of them is in some sense the closest living relative. If the Mongol Empire were to suddenly be revived, who would be the Emperor?

tlb wrote:I am wondering if you mean that it is all too easy to find a descendant if Genghis Khan today; the problem is that statistically there is a continent full of them. What would be really difficult would be finding which of them is in some sense the closest living relative. If the Mongol Empire were to suddenly be revived, who would be the Emperor?

Exactly. After 850 years, the number of descendents would be huge, but finding out who the legitimate heir would be impossible.

Just look at any number of former monarchies in Europe and we had reigning monarchs for most of those only 150 years ago or less, with perfect history recorded. Who's the heir to the French, Portuguese, Romanian, or Bulgarian thrones, for example?

(if those were restored, they might take the pragmatic approach like the Greek and Norwegian ones did and choose a Danish prince)

Brigade XO wrote:
Just having Travis and the other officers (and enlisted) watching the Andermain operations -including processing the captured mercenaries and system rebel forces would have opened up all sorts of lines of thinking for having standardized procedures and processes. What did they do and why and how. Having such stuff set up both avoids problems, makes sure you don't forget important stuff and keeps records at the same time. Travis also got in-depth experience of troubleshooting a battleship from a damage control perspective which also gave him practical look at how systems were laid out and controls. Both he and Lisa got practical observations of tactics and procedures. I'm sure the Captain of the diplomatic ship also got an eyeful of what and how the Andy's were doing things. All of this feeds into after-action reports to extract data and understanding tactics- both from the perspective of the Andermani and of the mercenaries.

Travis observed that CIC could act as a tertiary (quaternary?) command and control node, if the flag bridge, command bridge and back-up command were all damaged, but it didn't have the direct control connections to the ship's systems that the other nodes had. He discerned at least one rationale for not doing that, but still thought it was a potential weakness. He also noted that if CIC had to assume control, the momentary delay in implementing commands was probably going to be the least of the ship's worries.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's not to say there wouldn't be a descendant. But it might equally be like asking us to find a descendant of Gengis Khan today, and it's about the same span of time.

I am wondering if you mean that it is all too easy to find a descendant if Genghis Khan today; the problem is that statistically there is a continent full of them. What would be really difficult would be finding which of them is in some sense the closest living relative. If the Mongol Empire were to suddenly be revived, who would be the Emperor?

The comparison to Genghis Khan is a bit off the charts for the simple reason the man was prone to mount anything within reach wherever he went.

A better comparison would be to find the descendants of a random person that was somewhat well off living in 12-13th century that had one if his/hers children immigrate to South America or something.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:I am wondering if you mean that it is all too easy to find a descendant if Genghis Khan today; the problem is that statistically there is a continent full of them. What would be really difficult would be finding which of them is in some sense the closest living relative. If the Mongol Empire were to suddenly be revived, who would be the Emperor?

Exactly. After 850 years, the number of descendents would be huge, but finding out who the legitimate heir would be impossible.

Just look at any number of former monarchies in Europe and we had reigning monarchs for most of those only 150 years ago or less, with perfect history recorded. Who's the heir to the French, Portuguese, Romanian, or Bulgarian thrones, for example?

(if those were restored, they might take the pragmatic approach like the Greek and Norwegian ones did and choose a Danish prince)

Actually the end of many of those monarchies happened since the end of WW 1 and the families are still among us should the extremely unlikely decision be made to restore them on a hereditary basis.

Tracing back to Genddis (sp)Khan might be a bit much, however. Still, some British families can trace themselves back to William the Conqueror. And I would assume the same of some continental families. Japan's ruling family Is asserted to go back over 2000 years although I am skeptical of that.

Sooo...interesting subject...

Don

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n7axw wrote:Tracing back to Genddis (sp)Khan might be a bit much, however.

Not really, they did that in 2003 and came to the conclusion that on average 1 in 200 men are direct line descendants of Genghis Khan, a so called super-Y lineage. See The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols.

As I said in my comment above, Genghis Khan was prone to mount anything within reach wherever he went, whether it was a horse or a woman.

There are some other super-Y lineages of note, like Uí Néill and Manchu.

n7axw wrote:Actually the end of many of those monarchies happened since the end of WW 1 and the families are still among us should the extremely unlikely decision be made to restore them on a hereditary basis.

I understand that, but even then it's not an easy thing to determine who the legitimate heir should be. Many of those heirs have not followed the rules that their monarchy laws required for marrying, so their offspring wouldn't be eligible to the throne, which of course those offspring would dispute. For example, in France, the king was not allowed to marry one of his subjects, which is why all French queens were foreign-born. Another aspect is that all of the current European monarchies have passed laws in the last 30 years to allow for full primogeniture, instead of a male-first one, which is why (barring unforeseen consequences) the next monarch of Sweden will be Queen Victoria, eldest daughter of King Carl XVI Gustav. So if the monarchy were to be restored in Portugal, for example, would they adopt this law, which didn't exist when the monarchy was abolished in 1910? And would it be applied retroactively?

And then there are of course the cases of when the royal family was executed, as was the case of Tsar Nicolas II in Russia. I'm sure most people have heard the folk story that his daughter Anastasia and youngest son Alexei had survived the Bolcheviks and were in hiding somewhere (their bones have since been found), which leads to all sorts of pretenders claiming to be descendants.

My point is that it's difficult enough when we're talking about about a century of fully recorded history.

Tracing back to Genddis (sp)Khan might be a bit much, however. Still, some British families can trace themselves back to William the Conqueror. And I would assume the same of some continental families. Japan's ruling family Is asserted to go back over 2000 years although I am skeptical of that.

IIRC, Queen Elizabeth II claims to be descended not only from William the Conqueror but also from the Saxon kings from before the Norman invasion. I think the only reason they don't claim to be descended from King Arthur is because there's little concrete proof Arthur really existed.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
IIRC, Queen Elizabeth II claims to be descended not only from William the Conqueror but also from the Saxon kings from before the Norman invasion. I think the only reason they don't claim to be descended from King Arthur is because there's little concrete proof Arthur really existed.

It’s actually fairly easy to prove descent from Saxon Kings if you’re in the primogeniture line of succession- because the Saxon line survived via Queen Margaret of Scotland. It’s amazing how many records people keep if you’re in line to possibly inherit an entire country.

King Arthur, on the other hand…

The lesson from Queen Elizabeth being able to prove descent for over a thousand years is that people on Manticore probably could find heirs on Earth - if those heirs knew in advance they might be in line for something from their relatives on Manticore. If they knew, for example, that they could inherit assets on Earth or even Manticore if their relatives didn’t survive, successive generations would probably be firmly told to make sure the relevant documents were lodged at a legal firm.