about the alignment (sort of spoilers)

Its OPEC not OTEC OPEC stands for Orginzation of Petrolium Exporting Countries

namelessfly wrote:It is all about the joy of control. Back in the late 19th and early 20th century, the rich were pushing the Eugenics movement. Late 20th and 21st century sees the rich pushing Th Limits To Growth hokum and Global Warming Theology. If those guys would invest some money on cheap space launchers to build Solar Power Satellytes there would be no energy shortage. Ditto for OTEC which would also sequester CO2. Keep in mind that solving the problem would make them even richer. However, they prefer to bankroll the hysteria and impede any solutions so that they can justify imposing control.

Am I sounding like a Marxist Lenninist Liberal.

tinfoil wrote:

Duckk wrote:The US still is feeling the effects of slavery 150 years after its abolishment. Middle East countries range from distrust to outright hatred of European countries, the root of which can partially be traced back to the Crusades and imperial days. So it's not unfathomable that the most destructive war fought on Earth which produced billions if not tens of billions of deaths, destroyed much of Earth's capacity to sustain life, and preserved in electronic media for all time be remembered and feared.

As for the Mesan Alignment in particular, they did try to approach it in a reasonable, public manner, but was shouted down by Beowulf. And since Beowulf's position has not changed a single iota since Leonard Detweiler's time, the Alignment knows its not going to get a fair hearing at all, ever, unless it changes the context of the debate. Hence the destruction of the League. Could this have been approached in the kind of cold blooded Vulcan-like logic way over the centuries? Possibly. But history shows decisions aren't made by emotionless logic machines, it's made by people. And the people of a ideology or nation tend to counter derision with militancy.

So ultimately, I see no problem with the genesis of the Alignment or the strategy it adopted in light of what happened to the adherents of Leonard Detweiler.

The MA has a goal: improving humanity, and its quality of life (on their own terms).

I suspect that their def'n of humanity mostly includes their own alpha lines, and perhaps the beta/gammas.

Many Mesans in the series seem to be quite willing to enjoy luxuries when available, and care little about the fate of 'common folk'

Under the plan, I suspect that the REST of humanity are going to be relegated to untermensch status. So if a few (say 10-30%) are killed while the galaxy is restructured, oh well.

The only reason why they are hiding and avoiding EE-type atrocities for now is pragmatic: They are afraid of the Sollies. But once the Sollies are broken up, what's to stop them? Don't forget that there has only ever been ONE enforcer of the Eriandi Edict, and they are about to remove that piece from the chessboard.

Create a dark-enough age, kill/starve enough people, and then show that only the MA and their better-life-through-better-genes can save them.

The 'belief system' they follow may be one where better genes make better people make a better universe, but the MA wants to be the ones to decide what 'better' means for everyone.

john964 wrote:Its OPEC not OTEC OPEC stands for Orginzation of Petrolium Exporting Countries

No, he means OTEC.

Given my lack of skill as a typists, the presumption that I'd mispelled yet again was perfectly reasonable.

OTEC is an acronymn for Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion. The technology exploits the temperatture gradiant between warm surface waters and the cold depths to generate power. Given the relatively small temp differential and low temperature, the thermodynamic effeciency sucks at about 6% to 9% depending on location. However; the system effectively utilizes the tropical oceans as both solar thermal collectors and thermal energy storage. The "pollution" is pumping neutrients from the cold depths up to the surface of predominantly barrent tropical oceans which will stimulate plankton blooms which of course will remove CO2 from the atomosphere then sequester much of the Carbon in the depths when they die as Calcium Carbonate.

Getting energy to cities where it is needeed is one major draw back. Microwave transmission bounching off of an orbiting reflector (could mass less than 100 tons) is an obvious solution. Using energy to make hydrogen then combining hydrogen with carbon to make Methane (synthetic Natural Gas?) that can then be shipped by LNG tanker is another option. Also could combine Hydrogen with atmospheric Nitrogen to make fertilizer which right now is a major energy hog. Also could use OTEC electricity to make Aluminum which is another energy hog industry. Israelis have also developed an Aluminum based fuel cell so you could actually use Aluminum as an energy storage medium.

Bfoote will justifiably lambast me for pointing out the advantages of the direct cycle version whcih simply uses water vapor evaporating from the warm side to condense on the cold side to operate an EXTREMELY LOW PRESSURE turbine which would of course require a VERY LARGE DIAMTER which might be impractical. However; the direct cycle system has the advantage that a one GW plant would produce about 8 billion gallons of fresh water per day whcih could be shipped via tanker to arid countries for irrigation.


Unfortunately; the World's self appointed elites would prefer to collapse the global economy and force people to starve so that they can exploit global warming as a pretext to impose control. My local paper had an Op-Ed article in which some over educated fucktard (actually a damn liar) argued that Global Warming is causing the unusually cold weather and blizzards. The guy actually had the terminity to argue that Arctic Ice and Siberian snow resulting from Global Warming are reflecting sun light and making hte planet colder. If he'd crunch the numbers, he's know that solar isolation in Norhtern lattitudes during winter is just about zero, so increased reflectivity doesn't matter. On the other hand, while snow and ice have a very high IR emissivity as does ocean water and most land surfaces, snow and ice are extremely good thermal insulators so an Ice Pack or Snow Pack act as an insulator which reduces thermal radiation and thus keeps the planet a little warmer. Just one of God's little negative feedback loops to make certain we have a nice place to live.

ymchang001 wrote:

john964 wrote:Its OPEC not OTEC OPEC stands for Orginzation of Petrolium Exporting Countries

No, he means OTEC.

jeremysaint wrote:snip.
while i agree that they seem to want to subjugate all of humanity, i dont understand why. the rulers of the MA already enjoy unlimited luxury, unlimited freedom to research their genetics, and most importantly, enormous safety and security. they are trading that safety and security to go from subjugating a few billion people to subjugating a few hundred billion people. there would be no material gain to themselves, and they are incurring incredible risk to do it.

snip.

The problem is that the rulers of the MA have based their authority on Detwiler's dream of controlled evolution. If they were to just sit back and enjoy the perks of their position in the obscure security they have now, those who support them will see them as traitors to the plan. So they must proceed with the plan if they want to continue holding the power they have. They have no other option.

Rook wrote:The problem is that the rulers of the MA have based their authority on Detwiler's dream of controlled evolution. If they were to just sit back and enjoy the perks of their position in the obscure security they have now, those who support them will see them as traitors to the plan. So they must proceed with the plan if they want to continue holding the power they have. They have no other option.

No, it's more than that. They could always come up with excuses for not kicking off a war this year, just like the Soviet Politburo did. The MA leadership are both true believers and they think they will win.

It's a grand scheme to fix or improve something. They are "doing it for the children"
People keep comming up with grand schemes for using "natural" sources of energy. Then it seems the same people get all excited when there are problems that were "unexpected" or dismissed. The most recent is killing birds (particularly eagles) because of commercial wind turbines. Lots of conversation, very little in hard proof or measurable impact. So now the color is wrong -white is "bad" and they should be some shade of gray or purple- but if you use a bird friendly color you greatly increase the chance of something elce (like an aircraft) flying into them. AND, now it seems wind turbines interfere with civilian and military communications and radar. Does't seem too dificult to understand that putting up very tall structures with lots of metal and very large electrical generating equipment at the top would do that but why is it now such a surprise.

What I haven't seen yet is a good analysis of what some of those things will cause to change or the probable impact.
There is a major argument with Global Warming and the effects of human activity on climate change. A very vocal segment of the population is screaming about how bad it is and how it must be stopped.
So what is being proposed? Reach into the largest heat-pump on the planet and use the temperature diffentials for the major ocean currents to generate electricity. And what happens when you change the temperature of the ocean curents that circulate truly massive amounts of water over hemispheric distances?
That wil directly impact weather, it will change what happens (and where) to the exchange of nutrients from deepwater to surface and so the food chain of everything from krill to whales (and crabs and fish and birds and people).
Lets LOWER the temperature of the ocean in the northern lattitudes (and other places) at the same time we change the paths the currents take. Which is what you will do if you shift temepreatures and so affect salinity and the boundry effects of warmer and colder water. LIke exactly the reverse of what is being complained about now with effects of "Global Warming" on glaciers and places like Greenland the Artic Ice Pack and Antartica?
Can you say Ice Age and massive accumulation of show and glacial ice?

How about they go and experiment with some planet other than the one I live on?
Amoung other things, having the ability to get to that other planet would be a very good idea for humans if we keep screwing up by the numbers here.

Most environmentalists always say that any technology capable of actually being deployed is evil, but the any technology that isn't actually viable is going to the the answer.

The actual "truth", according to environmentalists who tell you what they really believe, is that the neolithic had technology too advanced for the safety of the planet. So they basically want everyone other then a self-selected elite to starve in the cold and dark.

Has ever been stated in the novels or elsewhere, unequivocal that the Detweiler’s with Albrecht as number one Bad Guy, are the ultimate villains?
I’m aware that they have been referred to as the “final layer” of the onion, and as the “centre” .
But sticking with the onion analogy, an onion usually has a heart at the centre. Is Albrecht the heart?

Arol wrote:But sticking with the onion analogy, an onion usually has a heart at the centre. Is Albrecht the heart?

The easy, flip, answer is that, "The MAlign has no heart."

In more realistic terms, The Detweilers are presumed extinct by most of the universe. That was a deliberate deception to defuse negative publicity from Beowulf and others. But, like a spider at the center of a web, they've been pulling strings and managing the grand strategy of forcing the rest of the universe to recognize the superiority of Leonard Detweiler's vision of genetic perfection.

Arol wrote:Has ever been stated in the novels or elsewhere, unequivocal that the Detweiler’s with Albrecht as number one Bad Guy, are the ultimate villains?
I’m aware that they have been referred to as the “final layer” of the onion, and as the “centre” .
But sticking with the onion analogy, an onion usually has a heart at the centre. Is Albrecht the heart?

We have no reason to believe otherwise. Sure, there could be yet another plot twist that there is some even more secret heart inside the Onion. But Albrecht Detweiler is the direct descendent of the original creator of The Plan. His very existence is not known outside of secret circles. There has been no hint that he is not in charge. And assuming another layer does not really gain the Alignment or us as readers anything. So, unless we get some kind of hint otherwise, it is sufficient to assume he really is the center.