The Torch Wormhole

cthia wrote:I never said anything about attacking Torch first. Actually I said as a part of a galaxy wide simultaneous hit.

Technically true. You said

cthia wrote:Operations against Haven will be based out of Torch

; however that logically isn't possible unless Torch was attacked first to enable the MAlign can base attacks from there.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:I never said anything about attacking Torch first. Actually I said as a part of a galaxy wide simultaneous hit.

Technically true. You said

cthia wrote:Operations against Haven will be based out of Torch

; however that logically isn't possible unless Torch was attacked first to enable the MAlign can base attacks from there.

Not unless it is all simultaneous. Remember, a far larger number of Lenny Dets than twenty eight to play with from the comfort of the War Room.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:I never said anything about attacking Torch first. Actually I said as a part of a galaxy wide simultaneous hit.

Jonathan_S wrote:Technically true. You said <quote="cthia"]Operations against Haven will be based out of Torch

; however that logically isn't possible unless Torch was attacked first to enable the MAlign can base attacks from there.[/quote>
Not unless it is all simultaneous. Remember, a far larger number of Lenny Dets than twenty eight to play with from the comfort of the War Room.

Certainly you can attack Haven and Torch simultaneously. But if, as you proposed every major system is hit in the first wave then there'd effectively be no follow-up operations against Haven to base out of Torch. And certainly the ones happening simultaneously with it being taken aren't being based out of there.


Now if you change your scenario from a simultaneous strike on all major systems to a rolling series of strikes then Torch could be hit in the first wave and then used as a base for follow-up waves. (Well more of a resupply point with shorter logistical route since you wouldn't have time to set up a proper base)

Of course if you lose the simultaneous strike on all major targets then it's back to the problem that by operating out of Torch your invisible ships are now tied to a known and attackable target - giving the Haven sector powers something to try hit. (If for no other reason than to slow down the MAlign op tempo by forcing them back to far longer supply lines)

They would be counting on a short victorious war. But failing that, command centers are already emplaced. If key personnel or ships are captured, they are ready to turn up the heat by planetary destruction.

If no one is guarding the wormhole, can invisible ships come thru undetected?

cthia wrote:If no one is guarding the wormhole, can invisible ships come thru undetected?

If no one is guarding the wormhole, anyone can come through undetected...

On the other hand, If someone was watching the wormhole, any emergence through it would be noticed, stealth and spider drive or no.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:If no one is guarding the wormhole, can invisible ships come thru undetected?

If no one is guarding the wormhole, anyone can come through undetected...

On the other hand, If someone was watching the wormhole, any emergence through it would be noticed, stealth and spider drive or no.

But would you be able to tell it is a ship. Maybe it's a ghost, or an unstable wormhole glitch. LOL

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:If no one is guarding the wormhole, can invisible ships come thru undetected?

Theemile wrote:
If no one is guarding the wormhole, anyone can come through undetected...

On the other hand, If someone was watching the wormhole, any emergence through it would be noticed, stealth and spider drive or no.

But would you be able to tell it is a ship. Maybe it's a ghost, or an unstable wormhole glitch. LOL

Oh you'd certainly be able to tell it was a ship. The warshaski sails you need to transit a wormhole bleed off transit energy in a very visible and unmistakable visual spectrum flash. Anybody keeping any kind of eye on the wormhole isn't going to miss a 300 km across flash bulb going off at the terminus.

Now if the observer wasn't close enough to respond then the stealth ship might be able to "race" down the grav lane to where it can drop its sail, and try to evade in stealth. But there will be no question that a ship arrived and then hid.

This isn't a subtle gravity signal (like a low velocity hyper transit creates) -- well it's probably that too but it's an unmistakable visual signal exactly where you know to already be looking. (A hyper emergence would only have that same visual signature if the system sat in a grav wave so sails had to be set - and even then if you drop out far enough to confuse grav sensors there will be a long speed of light delay before your visual signal would reach any observer)

Ok, I may have mixed the conversations- Victor with Thandi vs Victor with Imbisi- but it still Victor would have needed to get that information from somewhere ....well, being Victor he "could" have made it up. But I don't think so.

We do have a map- was posted (or at leaset i got it) in Oct 2019 which shows Felix as a junction with FOUR (4) wormhole termini. One to Darius, one to The Twins and two listed as unknown.
From The Twins it gets interesting. There is no intervening system/wormhole in the representation between The Twins and Torch. It is possible that there is no hyperspace voyage nessisary to get to a wormhole bridge to Torch but from what I remember thinking from what I read was that The Twins may mean that there are TWO wormholes at the system (seperate wormholes hence "the twins).
Initialy I had pictured all of this as Felix' wormhole leading to a junction of which one of it's termini lead to Darius. Not what the map shows
We know the Manerheim is negotating very quietly and through straw buyers to purchas the Felix system and aquire legal ownership (rather that just sieze it) and so a perch next to the otherwise secret Felix wormhole. We also know that Mannerheim was supplying the CRUSIER SQUADRON under the command of a Alpha lien Mannerheim Naval Officer and that was (and it or it's relief) is still sitting right on top of the Twins end of the Torch-Twins wormhole with essentilay Shoot-on-emergence anything that comes through that wormhole. No questions- rotate ships (possibly in pairs) right up to the outbound vector emergence of the wormhole with weapons hot and targeted into the emergence backet. If something appears fire everything and keep shooting till it's gas and dust.

What concerns me is that the map shows Darius a one terminus off of Felix and thought hat Darius was off a junction "inside" a secret wormhole system that had it at least one remove from anybody comming from Felix or Torch before they could then transit to Darius.

We understand from Uncompomising Honor that the Silver Bullet was sent through Felix and then to Werner to get it to Beowulf. If ALL the traffic to and from Darius has to go through Felix's wormhole, that is going to be a fair number of ships that the Mannerheim SDF is going to have to screen and deal with. That (since Torch wormhole isn't a viable option to use) is a chokepoint for the Alignment unless they have some hyperpace rendezvous (or several) to transship goods and people in transit to or from Darius to anywhere else. And putting "unknown" for other termini is, well, probably authorial license. Still. Felix does seem to be a place that might have way more traffice that it should given nobody lives there and Mannerheim is "borrowing" it- seemingly without telling anybody- to practice military manuveres

Oyster Bay was not schduled to happen when it did. That was a rush job-seriously rushed early- to deal with Manticore about to probably defeat Haven and derail The Plan to have Haven eventualy be the hammer to shatter the League.

Sure, the base tactics used at Manticore and Grayson are probably part (but only part) of what was to happen when all of the ships intended to be available for use were fully available, manned by experienced crews and with the numbers and types of weapons intended for both the INTENDED 1st strike of Oyster Bay and then the continued use of the Spider Drive ships in other, supporting operations to follow up in destroying the League and probably a lot of building capasity of Haven once it had surved it's purposes to the Alignment.
We don't know.
We do know that the Cataphracts seem to have been an Alighment development and quite possibly many of the missles and their follow-on improvemenets may have been built at Darius. That kind of shipping voulme makes for intersting freighter movements even with 3 to 5million ton freighters.
We do know that Mannerheim's SDF is more or less conventional to SLN tec though we will probably see them soon with pods and Cataprhats since they could have now acquired the equipment (or licenses) from TechnoDyne etc. But earlier discussions seemed to come to the conclusion that Mannerheim and any of the other RF SDFs were NOT going to have anything smelling of Spider or Streak drives.

Just have to see where this goes.