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SPOILER end of the MA

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu May 31, 2018 10:47 am

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As the readers, we intialy Silesia as already a Confederation with a central governing body and navy but ...and it's a big BUT....it had and probably for centuries had existing problems that the Confederation could't handle. Primarily it was corrupt government officials (at all sorts of levels) and active partnerships with various criminal organizations. What we were shown was that interplay with pirates with various System and Confed people providing support for pirates by acting as fences for goods/ships, safe baseing and logistics and not hunting them down. That would be 1st not actualy looking for them and 2nd not telling anybody where they were or doing much more than saying they were trying to eliminate pirates.

There were indepent Systems in Silesia, up to multi-system polities. There were also massive political and other problems such as Warnike (spelling). The Confederation Navy and the local SDFs were ineffective is dealing with these problems. Part of that was the connivance of various officials (at various levels) blocking the attempts to deal with the problems and part was the Confed Navy never apperas to have gotten it's act together.

There were systems where the governments were honest. There were (probably a lot) of Confed people who where honest and doing their jobs. But the whole thing was flawed with the corruption and crime. We seem to believe that the Alignment had something to do with that and it may be correct.
What we also were shown was that Manticore and at least the Andermani were ACTIVLY sending warships there for commerce protection for their own merchant shipping- and, of course, taking any pirate they encountered.

That would be one variation of the GA getting involved in what boils down to commerce protection in the areas around the new version of the SL in it's revised size and not being required (under thread of the ships being destroyed on sight) to stay out of anyplace not relative to the space of actual League Members. That would be in the Verge, anywhere in the "frontier" and the space of any system that opted to leave the League.

I have said before: The GA and it's member Star Nations are going to continue to need to develope new people (and tech) and maintain their Navy's experience and competence in dealing with warfare in the Honorverse. Pirate hunting does help with that and you also are going to be using ships out doing that patroling as testbeds for new tech and upgrades and evovling tactics.
Commerce protection is NOT a waste of money. It keeps you from loosing parts of that vast economic engine that is your (and your treaty partners) merchant fleets. It also provides live fire and realtime experience in doing their jobs and at least maintaining the skills and proficiency of our Navy.
How can you also not think at, beyond the Alignment and the RF doing what they can to mess things up for the GA and relative peace, there are going to be any number of people who will be upset about the loss of their power, income and ability to do what they want with the changes forced on the Leage plus just plain old wish for revenge. So, there will be a need for a powerful, evefective and evolving naval ability on the part of the GA and it's component Star Nations. The Andermani can also be uncomfortable neighbors (they do want to grow) so the whole idea of peace through strength does apply, even of relations do remain more or less cordial.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by kzt   » Thu May 31, 2018 12:24 pm

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There were ~60 systems in Silesia. Commerce protection and patrolling sucked up something like a quarter of the entire RMN. How much of the RMN will trying to patrol and provide commerce protection of 2000 systems suck up?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu May 31, 2018 1:13 pm

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kzt wrote:...trying to patrol and provide commerce protection of 2000 systems suck up?


The RMN won't be trying to protect 2,000 systems, they'll be providing protection for 20,000 RMMM ships -- or however many RMMM ships there happen to be in areas that require commerce protection.

Presumably, they won't be required in MARS space, Andermani Space, RF space, reformed SL space, or any of the peripheral multi-system politi's space; any place with sufficient commerce protections and/or lack of pirates, privateers and commerce raiders preying on RMMM ships.

The RMN/Grand Fleet is clearly going to have more territory to patrol, but not anything like all of Human Space, or really not more than a small fraction of Human Space where pirates and privateers interact with GA ships.

It's not like the GA is going to be the only government dealing with pirates and privateers.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Theemile   » Thu May 31, 2018 6:07 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
kzt wrote:...trying to patrol and provide commerce protection of 2000 systems suck up?


The RMN won't be trying to protect 2,000 systems, they'll be providing protection for 20,000 RMMM ships -- or however many RMMM ships there happen to be in areas that require commerce protection.

Presumably, they won't be required in MARS space, Andermani Space, RF space, reformed SL space, or any of the peripheral multi-system politi's space; any place with sufficient commerce protections and/or lack of pirates, privateers and commerce raiders preying on RMMM ships.

The RMN/Grand Fleet is clearly going to have more territory to patrol, but not anything like all of Human Space, or really not more than a small fraction of Human Space where pirates and privateers interact with GA ships.

It's not like the GA is going to be the only government dealing with pirates and privateers.



Besides the GA is in a positon to do something in the Verge they could not do in Silesia - Dictate terms.

If you want our support, we will patrol 1 (read one and only one) hyperspace emergence volume per system and 1 travel corridor from the emergence volume to each occupied planet/ major port in the system. This volume will be patrolled with drones, LACs and whatever hyper combatants the GA feels is necessary for the threat level to your system. Any activity outside this agreed volume is outside of the GA's pervue.

If you do not agree with our terms, All GA merchants will be notified of the status of your system. If you decline our assistance AND fail to prove you can provide sufficient protection for civilian traffic, you may find the insurance costs for freighters to service your system rise, effecting the cost of carriage to and from your system.

If you wish to purchase your own protection, allow me to introduce you to our team of financial assistance specialists and Defense professionals, who can offer you a wide assortment of packages, tailored to your needs, with low financing opportunities.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Thu May 31, 2018 6:45 pm

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kzt wrote:There were ~60 systems in Silesia. Commerce protection and patrolling sucked up something like a quarter of the entire RMN. How much of the RMN will trying to patrol and provide commerce protection of 2000 systems suck up?


Where did you get the figure indicating it took up almost a quarter of the RMN?

Prior to the first war with Haven the RNM has 1621 vessels so you're saying they used roughly 400 ships to patrol those 60 star systems? I'm not saying you're wrong just wondering where that percentage came from because I haven't seen it or found it.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu May 31, 2018 7:00 pm

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ywing14 wrote:Prior to the first war with Haven the RNM has 1621 vessels so you're saying they used roughly 400 ships to patrol those 60 star systems?


That's probably a fair estimate even without textev. (if any textev does exist, it would be in Honor's TOE at Marsh.)

It would not be 400 ships at any one time, but more like 100 on station, 100 working up or enroute, 100 in rest and refit, and 100 in periodic maintenance; give or take 40-50 ships in any category.

Essentially, around 1.5 ships/system, rotated back to Manticore after one t-year on station.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Thu May 31, 2018 7:21 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
ywing14 wrote:Prior to the first war with Haven the RNM has 1621 vessels so you're saying they used roughly 400 ships to patrol those 60 star systems?


That's probably a fair estimate even without textev. (if any textev does exist, it would be in Honor's TOE at Marsh.)

It would not be 400 ships at any one time, but more like 100 on station, 100 working up or enroute, 100 in rest and refit, and 100 in periodic maintenance; give or take 40-50 ships in any category.

Essentially, around 1.5 ships/system, rotated back to Manticore after one t-year on station.


I really agree with that especially since prior to Marsh they didn't have a base in that area. Everything would refit in Manticore. It also doesn't take long to get to the confederacy as they take the wormhole junction to Gregor A. Everyone who's doing rest or refit would be doing that in Manticore so those ships would just be assigned to home fleet. I find it unlikely there were any more than 100-150.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu May 31, 2018 8:19 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
ywing14 wrote:Prior to the first war with Haven the RNM has 1621 vessels so you're saying they used roughly 400 ships to patrol those 60 star systems?


That's probably a fair estimate even without textev. (if any textev does exist, it would be in Honor's TOE at Marsh.)

It would not be 400 ships at any one time, but more like 100 on station, 100 working up or enroute, 100 in rest and refit, and 100 in periodic maintenance; give or take 40-50 ships in any category.

Essentially, around 1.5 ships/system, rotated back to Manticore after one t-year on station.



First of all, Silesia was originally just a quadrant...no one actually ran it all. That's when piracy was high. There were planets protecting the pirates. Honor ran into that early in her career.

After the agreement with the Andermanni, the region was split. Given a bit of time, the planets won't be supporting pirates. And the navy will catch and kill pirates. That limits them.

There is no reason the Solarian navy can't still handle a lot of the anti-piracy patrols. Most of the navy will be spared from any real punishment.

Yes, over time, there might be some Manty patrols particularly in the Verge or Shell where there are non-League planets but unless some planets really go pirate, I think the problem will be minimal.

Also, if the GA learns the Spider drive it can send shadow ships into different areas and follow pirates back to planets.
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by ywing14   » Thu May 31, 2018 9:31 pm

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My personal opinion is that if the Verge and Shell go independent then why would the want the SLN there? For hundreds of years the SLN under the guise of Frontier Security basically turned them into client stated and ramshackled their economies. Especially give some of the tactics they used would any newly independent world want the SLN in or around their space?
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Re: SPOILER end of the MA
Post by n7axw   » Thu May 31, 2018 9:53 pm

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We know that a spider moves by using tractor beams to grab hyper, propelling it forward. I have been assuming that is in normal space. How does it move in hyper?

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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