Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Jonathan_S and 22 guests

"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by RedBaron   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:23 pm

RedBaron

Duckk wrote:
RedBaron wrote:J**** G** D*** F****** C*****!
If you layabouts spent HALF as much time thinking of ways to make things work as you do coming up with "can't" excuses, the world wouldn't be in the f****** mess it's in now!!!!!

I REALLY hope none of you are in a position of authority!


Said it before, saying it again: I don't care if you people disagree, but if you can't do it without a modicum of respect, you have no place here on this board.


Then deal with your troll infestation on here!
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by The E   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:52 pm

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

RedBaron wrote:Then deal with your troll infestation on here!


Your unwillingness or inability to defend your ideas against criticism (claiming that everyone's just a negative Nancy is not a defense) does not mean that the people voicing said criticism are trolls.
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Duckk   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:22 pm

Duckk
Site Admin

Posts: 4200
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm

RedBaron wrote:Then deal with your troll infestation on here!


Arguing something is infeasible is not trolling, especially when those arguments provide data and examples. Provide your own counter examples why you think something is possible, instead of simply asserting people are wrong.
-------------------------
Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:39 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5241
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

This SD disposal conversation brings to mind a recent garage find of mine; My parents recently moved after they retired and "found" a bunch of boxes of mine in the process. One box contained my old printer for my Commodore 64; The Commodore itself is long since gone, but here is the printer. I looked at the ribbon, I had used less than 1/10th of the original ribbon, and found 2 spare ribbons new in plastic in the box.

So here is a printer; Aged to say the least, but working fine. I have spare ribbons, so it can work for me for years. It's not compatible with my modern pc, but I have the port schematics, and have the knowledge and ability to modify it to work with the modern pc with modified generic epson drivers.

But it's a 9pin black dot matrix printer, with speeds and quality that didn't impress in 1985. Yes, I can build an interface, but to do it right would not be pocket change, and would take me several days of research, planning and work. However, I can buy a low end color ink jet, photo quality printer for less than $20 and have it working in less than 10 minutes.

So, should I get the old printer working?

The answer for me was to yank the motors, gears and switches, and recycle the rest. I have several perfectly good working printers in the house and a new backup in storage, all light years better than this old relic. Should they all die, it would be better to replace them with a new printer, than to force that old printer to work.

Which goes along with the SDs. For most ideas, there is a better, cheaper solution at hand. For others, it is impractical or unachievable in the current situation. For others, they are a one-off solution, which might happen some day, but not now, and not for more than 1 or 2 of them.

AS for our 'negativity", don't attack us, attack the logic behind our arguments. Sway us with the reasons your concept might be plausible. Actually listen to our arguments, and if they are flawed, point out the flaw. Draw others to your side instead of throwing verbal stones at them.

Please note, you are hearing the same points from many different posters - why? As I and others have said previously, we have already had this discussion, and debated points logically to see if they were plausible. and in the end, most everybody has come to the same conclusion. However, if there is a flaw in the logic, WE WOULD RELISH a fresh viewpoint with a workable concept.
Last edited by Theemile on Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Louis R   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:09 pm

Louis R
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1298
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:25 pm

Actually, if Joe got his numbers right [and I think he checked with Himself for this period] it was a 20-month repair job - or about the time it now takes to build a new SD from scratch, if you have everything up and running.

Jonathan_S wrote:
The E wrote:Couple factors you are ignoring: The Graysons had yard hands to spare and an obvious incentive to learn capital ship building techniques. They had a very pressing need for capital ships of their own. Putting the RHN SDs back into service filled both requirements, and the job still required several months of work (They were captured in 1905, their first offensive deployment happened in 1907).
Now. Let's look at the timeline so far. The SLN ships are captured in July 1921. As of Oyster Bay, which happens in February 1922, nothing whatsoever has been done with them (because there is literally no need to do anything with them). After Oyster Bay, with RMN shipbuilding either destroyed or focussed on rebuilding itself or servicing the existing RMN fleet, there is no meaningful capacity for ship modifications, let alone shipbuilding, in the Manticoran system.
So. Based on the example of the RHN SDs captured at third Yeltsin, it takes at least half a year to make meaningful alterations to capital ships comparable to the SLN vessels (Not counting design time), and that's with all the industry required to do it intact and operating at best possible efficiency and an overwhelming need driving the project.
Also the modifications that Grayson did were less extensive than most of the proposals i've seen people make for the SLN units.

They repaired battle damage, they gutted the ECM hardware and replaced it with RMN equipements, but AFAIK they didn't have to pull and replace missile launchers, CM tubes, PDLC mounts, drives, or carve out large new factory areas in the interior.

Could they have done all that? Yes. But it would probably take your 8+ month repair job and made it at least twice as long. And that's approaching the time it takes a modern yard to build a new SD from scratch. (Of course at that time Grayson didn't yet have everything in place to do that - but still; it shows that at some point modifying existing takes more time and effort than building what you want from scratch)
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by saber964   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:45 pm

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2423
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

I believe RFC has stated more than a few times that a SLN SD is the Honorverse equivalent of a pre-dreadnaught. Now let's compare a pre-dreadnaught with a modern battleship namely;

USS Iowa (BB-4) commissioned 1895
Vs
USS Iowa (BB-61) commissioned 1943

First BB-4
Speed 17 knots
Guns 12in/35 max range 18,000 yds shell weight 975lbs both AP and HE
Armor plate steel face hardened armor not invented until 1897. Deck armor 1-2 inches belt armor 6-15 inches
Fire control visual spotting tops

BB-61
Speed 33 knots
Guns 16in/50 range 42,000 yds shell weight 2700 lbs AP 1900 lbs HC
Armor face hardened Class A and B armor plate Deck 3-10 inches belt 6-17 inches + turret face of 22 inches
Fire Control Mark 36 FCD accurate 100 ft at 30000 yds accurate to 200 ft at 40000 yds.

Now tell who is going to win? Hell I'll give you every U.S. battleship built before the commissioning of the South Carolina class which IIRC is 22 battleships.
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:38 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8796
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

saber964 wrote:I believe RFC has stated more than a few times that a SLN SD is the Honorverse equivalent of a pre-dreadnaught. Now let's compare a pre-dreadnaught with a modern battleship namely;

USS Iowa (BB-4) commissioned 1895
Vs
USS Iowa (BB-61) commissioned 1943

First BB-4
Speed 17 knots
Guns 12in/35 max range 18,000 yds shell weight 975lbs both AP and HE
Armor plate steel face hardened armor not invented until 1897. Deck armor 1-2 inches belt armor 6-15 inches
Fire control visual spotting tops

BB-61
Speed 33 knots
Guns 16in/50 range 42,000 yds shell weight 2700 lbs AP 1900 lbs HC
Armor face hardened Class A and B armor plate Deck 3-10 inches belt 6-17 inches + turret face of 22 inches
Fire Control Mark 36 FCD accurate 100 ft at 30000 yds accurate to 200 ft at 40000 yds.

Now tell who is going to win? Hell I'll give you every U.S. battleship built before the commissioning of the South Carolina class which IIRC is 22 battleships.
At a strategic level the 22 pre-South Carolina class BBs probably can eke out a pyric victory against a single Iowa. Even with the hit rates the radar drive fire control of an Iowa she'd be hard pressed to disable or sink all 22 older battleships before simply running out of ammo and steaming over the horizon. (Strategic win for the survivors of the heavily battered 22 BBs who prevented the single Iowa from achieving whatever her original objective was.

The BuOrd OP 769 document says that the total number of 16" shells carried by an Iowa is 1,220; or about 135 per gun. Split across 22 targets that's a mere 6 full salvos each (54 shells); including all misses while getting on target or straddling. [54 shells * 22 targets = 1188 shells expended; leaving 32 shells, or just over 3 salvos, remaining to fire)

And unless it's a dire emergency I can't see the captain of the single Iowa closing to 5" range against the remaining BBs - at that point you risk getting mobbed despite the obsolescence of their guns and fire control.
So once you shoot yourself dry it's pretty much time to steam off to meet up with an ammo ship (or possibly back to a yard to reline your gun barrels)

Still it's an overwhelming advantage - just not quite 22:1 due to ammo and barrel life constraints. :D
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by robert132   » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:19 am

robert132
Captain of the List

Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:20 pm

After having read through quite a number of posts and responses I have to say this -

- I agree with those posters who say the captured Solarian warships are best utilized as a source of already refined materials to be recycled to build new space stations and starships.

Almost nothing in those ships meets the current standards of the RM / Grayson or Haven Navies, quite literally nothing in those ships is usable by those Navies as is.

A modern day corollary would be the conversion of WWII Soviet or Japanese destroyers or cruisers, adapting them to modern USN or Brit Royal Navy use, making them compatible with the systems in use today.

It CAN be done (see the former Soviet carriers totally rebuilt for the PRC and Indian Navies) but the effort and expense except in very rare cases is not worth it, especially if you DON'T have the supporting shipyard infrastructure and technicians (RMN / Grayson post Oyster Bay.)

What they DO represent is a considerable savings in time and energy to recycle into usable materials over mining, transporting and processing raw ores into a similar tonnage of material.
Last edited by robert132 on Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
****

Just my opinion of course and probably not worth the paper it's not written on.
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by munroburton   » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:21 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2375
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

saber964 wrote:I believe RFC has stated more than a few times that a SLN SD is the Honorverse equivalent of a pre-dreadnaught. Now let's compare a pre-dreadnaught with a modern battleship namely;

USS Iowa (BB-4) commissioned 1895
Vs
USS Iowa (BB-61) commissioned 1943

First BB-4
Speed 17 knots
Guns 12in/35 max range 18,000 yds shell weight 975lbs both AP and HE
Armor plate steel face hardened armor not invented until 1897. Deck armor 1-2 inches belt armor 6-15 inches
Fire control visual spotting tops

BB-61
Speed 33 knots
Guns 16in/50 range 42,000 yds shell weight 2700 lbs AP 1900 lbs HC
Armor face hardened Class A and B armor plate Deck 3-10 inches belt 6-17 inches + turret face of 22 inches
Fire Control Mark 36 FCD accurate 100 ft at 30000 yds accurate to 200 ft at 40000 yds.

Now tell who is going to win? Hell I'll give you every U.S. battleship built before the commissioning of the South Carolina class which IIRC is 22 battleships.


To be fair, I don't think most of the recent re-proposed ideas are about putting them into combat. They're more about modifying and using them the way USS Oregon(BB-3) or USS Kearsarge(BB-5) were.

Like I said earlier in the thread, Manticore doesn't have the spare capacity to start modifying the Solly SDs at present - and for almost any equipment need imaginable, a hollow freighter is a much better place to start anyway.

At most, one or two of those hulks might end up filling an extremely niche role. Just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean it would never happen - like when a younger Manticore decided to saw one of its battlecruisers in half to create two corvettes. Or when the older Manticore put a grav lance aboard a light cruiser.
Top
Re: "Obsolete SDs" Waste not...
Post by RedBaron   » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:15 pm

RedBaron

The E wrote:
RedBaron wrote:Then deal with your troll infestation on here!


Your unwillingness or inability to defend your ideas against criticism (claiming that everyone's just a negative Nancy is not a defense) does not mean that the people voicing said criticism are trolls.


It doesn't matter HOW something is explained, all they can do is troll others by pulling excuses out of their a**es for why it can't work!

If you're such a dumba** that all you can do is think of excuses, then...

:evil:
SHUT UP AND GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY OF THOSE WHO'RE TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS!
:evil:


Duckk wrote:
RedBaron wrote:Then deal with your troll infestation on here!


Arguing something is infeasible is not trolling, especially when those arguments provide data and examples. Provide your own counter examples why you think something is possible, instead of simply asserting people are wrong.



See above.

When a**holes like them are in charge, NOTHING gets done!
THEIR only idea (which shows their stupidity) is to feed the SDs into a wedge to rip them apart! And your defense of their attempts to antagonize others by constantly cutting down ideas instead of trying to help come up with ways to make those ideas work makes YOU part of the problem, DUCKK.
Top

Return to Honorverse