Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

tlb wrote:I expect you are right. Everything else being equal, the percentage of systems that are closer to Sol depends on the relation of the distance between Beowulf and Sol to the minimum radius of the sphere that encloses the Core worlds (where I was thinking the ratio was much smaller than it is).

However the point I was addressing was the statement that "If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf"; so by your own figures about 39% of the systems would have to pass Beowulf to get to Sol (the reverse of what you said). I was only saying that perhaps half of the Core worlds were closer to Sol.

Jonathan_S wrote:Technically not that entire 39% would -- some would be between Beowulf and Sol; so despite being slightly closer to Beowulf than Sol they'd be heading away from Beowulf to get to Sol.

That's why my initial SWAG of 25% was basically just looking at the pie-shaped wedge behind Sol (from the perspective of Beowulf)

But yeah, more of the League that I would have guessed should be able get to Beowulf quicker that Sol. (Assuming no unknown, to us, wormholes or required hyperspace detours)

But my point is that more than half of the Core Worlds are closer to Sol than to Beowulf (assuming that they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol; ignoring wormholes). If you take that line from Beowulf and draw a plane perpendicular to it through Sol, then half of the uniformly distributed systems are in the hemisphere that does not contain Beowulf. So are closer to Sol and would have to pass Sol to get to Beowulf.

Then there are the worlds between this plane and the previous plane that are closer to Sol than Beowulf, but would not pass Sol to get to Beowulf. So if wormholes are ignored, more than half of the Core Worlds (provided they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf and I do not yet understand you to be stating that.

I suppose that you should ask the quesition: What markets and trade routes flow more easily (faster and less expensively) though Manticore Wormhole Junction than either only within the sphere of the SL (and it's protectorates) or also include as a component of trade wormholes which allow traffic in and out of the League sphere without combining with traffic from anyplace with a MWJ terminus?

The initial wormhole between Manticre and Sigma Draconis (Beowulf) created the shortcut from essentially everything in the area close to Manticore and PROBABLY that included Haven and it's Republic --tough to tell with a 2 dimensional map but we know (because Haven still could send ships into the League once the Trevors Star access was denied to them- but it was a really long trip and so expensive and took a lot of time. You look at the map and there are a LOT of occupied star systems mentioned out "near Manticore in the early books of the Manticore -Haven war and in the Manticore ascendant series. Think easier access to SL tech and goods so shipping via Manticore Wormhole- both ways.

Once the terminus from Manticore to Trevors Star (and San Martin) opened it was the most economical rout to a lot of places out in what was the Haven Quadrant of which Manticore is a system
The opening of the terminus at Matapan added at least 4 but probsbly more and there is that wormhole between Durandel and Asgard the links the Anderman Empire out there.

Then the is the real large number of inhabited and often industrialized systems in th the Silesian Confederacy (like 60) which the opening other the Basilisk terminus leet Manticore provide access from both ends of the Confederacy.

Anything from the Andermani Empire was probably also needing to take a long trip into the League for the same reason. Not clear how long it would there the Andermanies freighters or general freighters to get to places within the league but once Manticore opened the terminus to Gregor-A the private shipping could get there more easily via Manticore. Again the 2 dimensional map with "angled lines" and spears of influence.

Before Talbot & the Lynx terminus, anything from the Talbot sector and closer to the League was heading (mostly we guess) into League space to get anywhere other than with customers outside the lease in the direction of Talbot Sector.

Then we have Hennesy with let trade flow to the Maya Secot and others.

So a LOT of shipping gets to move goods via the <WJ to a massive number of systems AND allowed SL and other systems easy access to these markets. That's the 1st money maker, The second is the Manticoree Merchant Marine which is not only using the Junctionto lower costs but is heavily involved in the trade an all those ares and the profits and wages for MMM end up mostly with the Manticore populations

It's an economic dynamo.

Brigade XO wrote:I suppose that you should ask the quesition: What markets and trade routes flow more easily (faster and less expensively) though Manticore Wormhole Junction than either only within the sphere of the SL (and it's protectorates) or also include as a component of trade wormholes which allow traffic in and out of the League sphere without combining with traffic from anyplace with a MWJ terminus?

What I think we do not know is the size of the trade between Core Worlds (except that the words "lucrative Core trade" were used in ToF), which would get little benefit from any wormhole into the Verge.

I think that we all agree that trade between the League and those systems well outside the League would be much improved by the wormholes from Manticore and Erewhon which linked the two areas. However the trade generated by the League has never been a major element in one of the stories and the available maps do not show all the wormholes that might, or might not, link with the wormholes we know.

Except for certain interstellar corporations that exploit systems in the Verge, we know that the bulk of the inhabitants of the Core Worlds are ignorant of the things outside the League (otherwise they would know of that exploitation). So the bulk of the information of interest to the Core Worlds is only flowing out of the Manticore wormhole and is already known in the League.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:I expect you are right. Everything else being equal, the percentage of systems that are closer to Sol depends on the relation of the distance between Beowulf and Sol to the minimum radius of the sphere that encloses the Core worlds (where I was thinking the ratio was much smaller than it is).

However the point I was addressing was the statement that "If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf"; so by your own figures about 39% of the systems would have to pass Beowulf to get to Sol (the reverse of what you said). I was only saying that perhaps half of the Core worlds were closer to Sol.

Jonathan_S wrote:Technically not that entire 39% would -- some would be between Beowulf and Sol; so despite being slightly closer to Beowulf than Sol they'd be heading away from Beowulf to get to Sol.

That's why my initial SWAG of 25% was basically just looking at the pie-shaped wedge behind Sol (from the perspective of Beowulf)

But yeah, more of the League that I would have guessed should be able get to Beowulf quicker that Sol. (Assuming no unknown, to us, wormholes or required hyperspace detours)

But my point is that more than half of the Core Worlds are closer to Sol than to Beowulf (assuming that they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol; ignoring wormholes). If you take that line from Beowulf and draw a plane perpendicular to it through Sol, then half of the uniformly distributed systems are in the hemisphere that does not contain Beowulf. So are closer to Sol and would have to pass Sol to get to Beowulf.

Then there are the worlds between this plane and the previous plane that are closer to Sol than Beowulf, but would not pass Sol to get to Beowulf. So if wormholes are ignored, more than half of the Core Worlds (provided they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf and I do not yet understand you to be stating that.

Sorry, I didn't realize I had to explicitly state the obvious -- since I'd calculated that only 39% of League space was closer to Beowulf than Sol then (assuming systems are evenly distributed; which we kind of have to as a default) then over half (specifically the other other 61%) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf.


So yes, I agree that more than half of the Core World (provided they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf.

Jonathan_S wrote:Sorry, I didn't realize I had to explicitly state the obvious -- since I'd calculated that only 39% of League space was closer to Beowulf than Sol then (assuming systems are evenly distributed; which we kind of have to as a default) then over half (specifically the other other 61%) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf.

So yes, I agree that more than half of the Core World (provided they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf.

I am sorry about forcing you to belabor the point, but my reason for that was this statement by you: "If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf". Since I could see that about half of the Core Worlds would have to pass Sol to get to Beowulf, I was trying to reconcile the difference between one quarter and one half.

Tangentially we agree that more than half are closer to Sol (I do accept your calculation).

PS: I consider going through the plane that passes through Sol and is perpendicular to the direct line between Beowulf and Sol, to be traveling "past Sol to reach Beowulf".

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Sorry, I didn't realize I had to explicitly state the obvious -- since I'd calculated that only 39% of League space was closer to Beowulf than Sol then (assuming systems are evenly distributed; which we kind of have to as a default) then over half (specifically the other other 61%) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf.

So yes, I agree that more than half of the Core World (provided they are uniformly distributed in a sphere centered on Sol) are closer to Sol than to Beowulf.

I am sorry about forcing you to belabor the point, but my reason for that was this statement by you: "If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf". Since I could see that about half of the Core Worlds would have to pass Sol to get to Beowulf, I was trying to reconcile the difference between one quarter and one half.

Tangentially we agree that more than half are closer to Sol (I do accept your calculation).

PS: I consider going through the plane that passes through Sol and is perpendicular to the direct line between Beowulf and Sol, to be traveling "past Sol to reach Beowulf".

Yeah, and looking back on it I had been thinking more along the lines of "pass near" than "travel past" and so wasn't considering things way off to the sides of Sol in that one quarter number I threw out.

Probably should have used more precise wording; but at the time it didn't seem very important so I had just quickly eyeballed a lower bound of things where, to get to Beowulf, you'd need to fly fairly closely past Sol and threw it out there as an extra emphasis on saying it wasn't faster for (all of) the rest of the League to go to Beowulf.

(And I think spent all of 5 seconds on it; mostly along the lines of 'well if you split the League into 4 pie slices Sol would be at the center and Beowulf roughly in the middle of the top one, then there'd be an entire bottom slice "behind" Sol from Beowulf -- so hey, 1/4'. Oops) And then got caught up nitpicking terminology and not explicitly saying I agreed with your main point.

I've found a disconnect. I might be partly the blame because in the opening post of ‘Did the MBS corner the market on trade?’ I stressed how the MBS can corner the market(s) by way of the freshest data coming out of the MBS – an analogue of Wall Street. I might have concentrated on that fact a bit too much at the exclusion of all else.

The MBS is more than that. It is a reservoir of the freshest data possible compiled from all over the galaxy available in the MBS because of the MWJ.

Let me pause to take the opportunity to explain that cornering the market is exactly that. That entire market – and any other market that an entity has cornered – is taking place in that entity's corner. Recall the movie Trading Places that I referenced in the Did the MBS corner the market on trade? thread. In the movie Trading Places, Winthorp and Valentine had cornered the market on pork bellies using the data the Dukes were going to use to do the same thing. Since Winthrop and Valentine had cornered the maket, all of the other traders down on the trading room floor were crowding all around them, trying to buy buy buy! When someone corners a market that you are dependent on, you have to go to them! You can't afford to buy from someone else. That someone else is trying to slow his bleed as well. So he's going to gouge you by charging you a fortune. Supply, cost and demand.

Sure, the SL is a very big economy. People keep saying that. The SL is also a military super power. A naval gorilla. The SL is a financial powerhouse as well. A financial gorilla. Ok, I agree on all accords.

But what you fail to see is that the MBS got the gorilla’s huge balls in their hands. Squeezing them! I don't imagine even a big gorilla can ignore having his testicles in a vise.

Jonathan _S wrote: Why would that be true if the League is the largest economy (which is it) and data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore?

That large economy is not trading – buying and selling – as efficiently as it could. The SL and its companies have to buy on margin. A safe margin. They cannot maximize their profits. That oftentimes will result in freighters that are not filled to capacity. The only thing worse than sending off a half-filled freighter to do business is some poor system – which already gets a delivery every blue moon – receiving a half-empty freighter. But SL companies cannot afford to buy too much in bulk for a commodity or item they may get stuck with. So supply and demand enters into the picture. A MBS’s enterprise has discovered the open market and is poised and eager to exploit that market. Perhaps the SL colony would love to buy SL goods. If they can get access to those goods, in adequate quantities.

But those prices!!! Good gawd y'all.

SL markets can't afford not to buy Manticoran goods. Manticoran goods are both convenient and cheaper!

And yes “data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore” but that data is stale because it is dependent on the last fluctuating prices of the last market. Also, do realize that what is more important to those League Systems is how fast data makes it to them from the MBS by way of Beowulf to Sol.

“Ok SL, we got you our data, when will a courier arrive with the latest quotes from the MBS!?"

Out of all of the SL systems, I wouldn't bank on the SL rushing much needed financial data to anyone but it's daughter colonies. Even if the SL COULD service all of its colonies in a timely manner. Those colonies NEED that data so they can manage their own economy. Heck, there was so much graft in the SL that I wouldn't be surprised if many entities inside the SL were involved in illegal trading practices with their own colonies! Keeping a boot on their neck. Cornering their own markets! The SL had a shipload of ships. Ships that could have ferried data to every colony it had. Do you think it did? Nope! Then they could not take advantage of them. I imagine so many colonies in the SL found themselves disgusted with the SL when the latest prices came out of the MBS and they realized they had just been taken advantage of. Especially when a Manticoran enterprise happened by and they realized the much lower prices. Corruption and graft expedites your market leaving you.

The SL was losing markets left and right. System A need a lot of deliveries of Product X. The SL is not providing it to them as conveniently and timely as they need it to run their business. Businesses cannot run if materials are unavailable. Assembly lines come to a grind. Enter the MBS market looking to expand. Their freighters are full – the demand is there – and their costs are damned near half price!

Supply and demand. It's just business guys. The SL saw Manticore cornering markets all over the SL! The MMM are operating all over the SL making contacts.

“You have a shortage on what??? And you're paying what? … Huh? … Tell you what. If you buy from us we'll promise to fill whatever order you need at half the price. And we will deliver on time. Every time.”

“What!!! Deal!!!!!!”

And that's how markets are cornered guys. In every corner of the galaxy. Again, why do you think the SL hated Manticore and its MWJ. They hated them for lots of reasons.

The current discussion going on is pointless. Theemile gave you all you need to know.

Theemile wrote:Ah, but Beowulf is the closest inhabited planet to Sol, and Manticore is essentially 1 day away from Beowulf.

It does not matter if the first part of that sentence is true or not. It is the second part that is important!

Listen guys, most of us are old enough to remember the newspaper? Before the internet, do you remember your mother and father depending on the newspaper?

“Anyone seen the morning paper?”

Everything depends on the days newspaper! It came once a day! Your mother did not go shopping before she had a chance to check out the many deals at the super(markets.) She didn't go shopping for clothes before she checked out the newspaper. Your father checked the prices on used cars and private sellers. And lots of people read the latest news about stock quotes. But everything revolved around that darn newspaper!

Guess what people. The newspaper comes once a week in the HV. And everybody! I do mean everybody! Waited on it!

It does not matter how close most colonies are to Sol than Beowulf. Everyone is waiting for the data coming out of the MBS via Beowulf, including Sol. SL colonies do not want to be gouged by the SL. I am sure it has happened many times.

Let's make this clear. Nobody makes a move until they have received the day’s newspaper coming out of the MBS.

Jonathan_S wrote:Why would that be true if the League is the largest economy (which is it) and data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore?

So? That data is going to be meaningless until the MBS can fill in the blanks!

Jonathan_S wrote:Sure, Manticore has the fastest information flow for the Verge. But the Verge economy is nearly an irrelevancy to the League economy. Parts of it mater to some transtellars -- but that's about it.

Theemile wrote:Ah, but Beowulf is the closest inhabited planet to Sol, and Manticore is essentially 1 day away from Beowulf.

In other words, Manticore is essentially the 2nd closest inhabited System to Sol, so has faster data communications to Sol than 99.9% of all human systems.

Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. Sigma Draconis is "little more than forty light-years from Sol"; I thought there were closer inhabited systems than that.

But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.

It. Does. Not. Matter. Everyone waits for the MBS Weekly News. If you haven't figured it out, that newspaper comes once a week.

There is a reason that those in the HV use holographic 3D displays. We tend to think in 2D as we interact on the surface of a planet. Even experienced military SF authors (not RFC) occasionally get caught by that.

Jonathan_S wrote:True - though I thought I recalled that there was no wormhole with both its termini in the League.

Even so, there might well be other (unknown to us) wormholes out of League space that let you hopscotch along the periphery (using other wormholes) and back in with lower transit time that the straight shot through hyper.

I think that comment is wrong, or at least a technicality - like the Visigoth/Mesa bridge - the Mesa side is "Technically" not in the League - but Mesan space is surrounded by League space. So it's inside the League sphere, but not owned by the League - and easily used to get from the periphery of the League to the center. Mannerheim/Warner is similioar in it's ownership/local, as is Yildune. Also verge termini are not technically League, but are under League influence.

And given the other warp bridges locations discussed, I think it has been retconned.

penny wrote:SL markets can't afford not to buy Manticoran goods. Manticoran goods are both convenient and cheaper!

And yes “data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore” but that data is stale because it is dependent on the last fluctuating prices of the last market. Also, do realize that what is more important to those League Systems is how fast data makes it to them from the MBS by way of Beowulf to Sol.

I find it difficult to believe that the Core Worlds need ANY of the information that passes though Manticore's wormhole. I also find this difficult to believe; because if the Core Worlds of the League were dependent on Manticore for information and goods, then they would not think of the inhabitants of Manticore as neobards out in the boondocks.

So if you have supporting text from the author, please present exact quotes and indicate where you found them. Do you even keep source material or are you relying on statements you have made previously (like in The Hunting of the Snark)?