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Remaining holes in SLN intel

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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:13 pm

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tlb wrote:
Bluesqueak wrote: I'm honestly not sure why people are getting so fixated on Green Pines: it's clear to me from textev that it was an unplanned event. Yes, it was used by the MAlign as a propaganda ploy -
but why this concentration on Cachat and Zilwicki instead of the local resistance/terrorist (pick one - me, I pick 'resistance') group they were working with? It was the local group who stole the nuke; the local group who wanted to use nukes rather than smaller explosives.

Statements removed for brevity.
Bluesqueak wrote:The children were innocent. The Mesans were not.

I agree with all that you say about Mesa and its citizens, but that is all backstory to the galaxy. It is the possible involvement of Manticore and allies in a indiscrimination terror campaign against adults and innocent children that has the potential to be a massive propaganda blow in the war. Whether you say Manticore and allies or Torch and the seccies, the result is sympathy for Mesa that we know is unwarranted.
Militarily it might not matter, but it can impact diplomacy.


Agreed that the MAlign will try to use this for propaganda. The wheels will come off, though - because they honestly see themselves as 'not criminals' and 'smartest genetic supermen in the room.'

So they'll try and create (via Audrey Hanrahan) a picture of an indiscriminate terror campaign against innocent adults and children, when there's an awful lot of former slaves, dead Seccies to show that they're not innocent. They'll be arguing for indiscriminate when there's a pattern to be found. They'll be trying to play mind games - against emphathic telepaths.

Propaganda works ... until it doesn't. As the People's Republic of Haven found, the Big Lie stops working when you try to be too clever - and get found out.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by n7axw   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:35 pm

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I have all the sympathy you might imagine for the kids, none at all for Mesa.

What was the butchers bill for the Yawata strike? 5 plus million? How many million of slaves have been casually murdered over time... including children?

Nope no sympathy for Mesa or the Alignment here...

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:12 pm

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n7axw wrote:I have all the sympathy you might imagine for the kids, none at all for Mesa.

What was the butchers bill for the Yawata strike? 5 plus million? How many million of slaves have been casually murdered over time... including children?

Nope no sympathy for Mesa or the Alignment here...

Don

-

The Yawata strike was against military targets. Not one person died on Grayson because of where they placed their targets. If the people behind the Yawata strike had been willing to use WMDs on a planet the damage would have been insane.

Honestly, one of the worst things about Green Pines is it can be used to "justify" the Yawata strike in propaganda. Sure, the average Manticorian probably won't fall for it, but that's just bias. If anyone else learns that Manticore fired the first "shot", Manticore's entire case is gone. When you considered how they responded to terrorists who were loosely connected to Monica, Manticore just looks like a whiny hypocritical mass murderer.

Obviously the Yawata strike was on the way by the time Green Pines happened, but Manticore can't prove that. Or even present any real evidence. All anyone knows except for the Malign is it happened after Green Pines. :twisted:
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by ldwechsler   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:11 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:
n7axw wrote:I have all the sympathy you might imagine for the kids, none at all for Mesa.

What was the butchers bill for the Yawata strike? 5 plus million? How many million of slaves have been casually murdered over time... including children?

Nope no sympathy for Mesa or the Alignment here...

Don

-

The Yawata strike was against military targets. Not one person died on Grayson because of where they placed their targets. If the people behind the Yawata strike had been willing to use WMDs on a planet the damage would have been insane.

Honestly, one of the worst things about Green Pines is it can be used to "justify" the Yawata strike in propaganda. Sure, the average Manticorian probably won't fall for it, but that's just bias. If anyone else learns that Manticore fired the first "shot", Manticore's entire case is gone. When you considered how they responded to terrorists who were loosely connected to Monica, Manticore just looks like a whiny hypocritical mass murderer.

Obviously the Yawata strike was on the way by the time Green Pines happened, but Manticore can't prove that. Or even present any real evidence. All anyone knows except for the Malign is it happened after Green Pines. :twisted:


The problem is that Manticore did NOT, I repeat did NOT, set off the bombs on Mesa.

The first was built by Mesans as a defensive measure and set off by a Mesan security man. Of that, there is no doubt.

The second was set off by a deranged Mesan seccie.

Although Manticorans were around, neither one had anything to do with the bombs.

Yes, the first was done to help their escape but they didn't build it or set it off. They might not even have known it existed.

And the second one was a bomb they knew nothing about.

Yes, they could and were accused by Mesa. And it went nowhere. There was remarkably little sympathy for the Mesans anywhere in the galaxy.

So why are we still arguing?
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by tlb   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:44 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:The problem is that Manticore did NOT, I repeat did NOT, set off the bombs on Mesa.

The first was built by Mesans as a defensive measure and set off by a Mesan security man. Of that, there is no doubt.

The second was set off by a deranged Mesan seccie.

Although Manticorans were around, neither one had anything to do with the bombs.

Yes, the first was done to help their escape but they didn't build it or set it off. They might not even have known it existed.

And the second one was a bomb they knew nothing about.

Yes, they could and were accused by Mesa. And it went nowhere. There was remarkably little sympathy for the Mesans anywhere in the galaxy.

So why are we still arguing?

Anton Zilwicki had a hand on both nukes that the seccies had brought to him; the only one he did not know about was the third one that destroyed the Gamma Center. He personally disabled the location mechanism on his two: one to blow up an empty building to destroy traces of his escape and the other was given to the seccie, intended for another safe target - instead it was used at Green Pines. So it means that you might want to reread Torch of Freedom.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by tlb   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:56 pm

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Bluesqueak wrote:
As of Cauldron of Ghosts, Honor was referring to him as 'Mr Zilwicki', so he had resigned by then. She called Victor by his rank in the same meeting, btw.

In the version of this meeting in At All Costs Anton is repeatedly referred as Captain Zilwicki.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:42 pm

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The Yawata strike was against military targets. Not one person died on Grayson because of where they placed their targets. If the people behind the Yawata strike had been willing to use WMDs on a planet the damage would have been insane.


Big challange with that one, about stuff that was addressed in the text. Oyster Bay was directed against military targets but we were clearly shown that the planners, while they took care not to end up dropping a KEW directly on any of the planets, clearly understood that there was going to be a lot of "collateral" damage from falling debris...and that was "just too bad". The reason they didn't hit Manticore, Griffon or Spinx with KEWs was because they thought that would raise the attack to a clear EE violation which MIGHT have had to draw the attention of the SL or at least the SLN which was nominally the enforcer to go after EE violators.
So, hundreds of thousands die in the ground along with the hundred of thousands of people on the three main Manticorain Space Stations (70+ km long structures) and all the building slips and other instilations and it is "just" an attack on military targets. By an unknown attacker in an undeclared war. Move along, nothing to see here.....

Grayson was only hit in and around Blackbird which was their primary shipbuilding and industrial area other than the clearly (mostly) civilian stations orbiting Grayson.
Why? Well, the Alignment didn't have the ships nor the munitions to hit ANY MORE TARGETS THAN THE DID- they just didn't have the ammunition. Otherwise they would have also going after anything that could build anyting in both Manticore and Grayson systems (and probably stuff around the Junction) PLUS they would have gone after multiple target locations in Haven.
But OB as configured was a rush job with PROTOTYPE series of TRAINING & Proof of Consept vessels (at least the Sharks with much of the ordence hung on pylons) and Ghosts, to "trim back" the Manticore and Grayson capasity to build ships/weapons (and most other stuff ) plus kill as much of the spaceborn population who did the work or supported those who did.

The Alignment clearly had decided that they needed to hammer Manticore and Grayson's orbital infrastructure to stop the flow of things needed to fight the war and presumed that Haven would then sweep in and take over (at massive cost in ships and people to Haven to do it) at least Manticore. Then the SLN was supposed to swarm out and take Haven---note that the timeing of Raging Justice would have put them getting to Manticore either just before or shortly after a 2nd BOM with Haven probably going for broke- a 2nd time- to take Manticore.
IF Haven had come back at Manticore instead - post OB- showing up in alliance with them, Fillerta's massive fleet come in either on just the remains of the Home Fleet plus possibley 8th Fleet OR on the remnants of both the Manticorian and Haven fleets that had just gone another round for taking/holding Manticore. Either way, Fillerta was going to bet his ass chewed- by the either the collected Manticore fleet or the survivors of a victorious Haven attack force as Rageing Justice dropped into the system. Either way -agains just Manticore or the Haven survivors- Fillerta's massive 1st line SLN fleet would have gotten mauled.
Net effect- Manticore is lost, Haven is crippled (all that 1st line expereinced burned up- again-) and the SLN might hold the wreckage of the Manticore system but Fillerta's ships are both trashed and a long way from home.
Instead of the way it unfolded, it becomes a win-win-win for the Alignment. Fillerta dies anyway from that bomb in the flag bridge.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 am

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cthia wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:I think they realized it was MAlign mind control. It's irrelevant, the GA is the threat in their face, they must win or they won't be around to face the MAlign.


Is there textev on that? How can they know it was Malign mind control when they don't accept there's a Malign -- an unseen poker playing counterfeiting poker chips?


A Rising Thunder wrote:“Oh, give me a break!” Okiku’s tone was testier than it might have been, probably in reaction to her own inner tension, he thought. “I may grant you vast interstellar conspiracies, but mind control? Please!”
“I felt the same way,” al-Fanudahi said. “But that was before I found out Admiral Rajampet put a pulser in his mouth and pulled the trigger last night.”
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:26 am

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tlb wrote:As I understand the rule in international affairs: the agent of the state is assumed to act for the state. So lack of knowledge about Cachet actions is no excuse for Haven. Their only recourse is to repudiate his actions and possibly try him.
Look at Terekhov at Monica: operating without orders and setting things up so he could be repudiated. But without that repudiation, he acted with the Navy's blessing in effect.
It is true that Torch is at war, but Zilwicki is a Manticorean citizen - so to what extent would he have to be repudiated by Manticore?


Except he wasn't acting as an agent of Haven at the time, but of Torch--a nation at war with Mesa.

Mistakes happen in war, a bomb going off where it wasn't supposed to is not considered a war crime.

And the Gamma Center bomb is in no way their responsibility at all.
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Re: Remaining holes in SLN intel
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:49 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
tlb wrote:As I understand the rule in international affairs: the agent of the state is assumed to act for the state. So lack of knowledge about Cachet actions is no excuse for Haven. Their only recourse is to repudiate his actions and possibly try him.
Look at Terekhov at Monica: operating without orders and setting things up so he could be repudiated. But without that repudiation, he acted with the Navy's blessing in effect.
It is true that Torch is at war, but Zilwicki is a Manticorean citizen - so to what extent would he have to be repudiated by Manticore?


Except he wasn't acting as an agent of Haven at the time, but of Torch--a nation at war with Mesa.

He was literally on Haven's payroll at the time. After Haven found out about his antics he's still on their payroll.
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