What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

kzt wrote:

Chyort wrote:And who said anything about massive salvos. I am more concerned with hits per missile than i am with salvo size. I figure Accuracy is going to be the big problem when fighting Spider equipped ships that you have problems detecting.

It matters not a bit how accurate your missiles are if you can't detect, let alone localize, the enemy ships.

Heh, agree... But RFC has talked about what the detection ranges are eventually going to be, in his roundabout fashion. And i vaguely recall it being highly limited. So being able to do course corrections up to the last second with apollo could matter a great deal.

Using a single apollo launch seems to me like a decent method to get an eyeball into the right place in a hurry as well. For when you cant wait for an RD to maneuver into position.

Besides, the Sollies don't have the spider drive... So less missiles and more kills works well on them in the mean time.

Chyort wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:There is more to versatility that launching massive salvos of Apollo missiles.

As demonstrated at Spindle, either can control Apollo salvos even if they can't use the FTL fire-control links.

That is a flawed argument if ever i heard one. The sad thing is you still try to make it even while admitting it is flawed...

As you yourself say. They suffered decreased missile performance because they didn't have 2 way FTL fire control. Which means their fire was less effective and more wasteful. Which is a not so minor consideration even with the haven/beowulf alliance.

I don't think you understand what "versatile" means. It does NOT mean best at one thing or best at everything.

A multi-role platform -- like a Battlecruiser -- isn't the best at any given mission, it is just "good enough" at a lot of different missions.

Weird Harold wrote:I don't think you understand what "versatile" means. It does NOT mean best at one thing or best at everything.

A multi-role platform -- like a Battlecruiser -- isn't the best at any given mission, it is just "good enough" at a lot of different missions.

ver·sa·tile
ˈvərsətl/
adjective
adjective: versatile

1.
able to adapt or be adapted to many different functions or activities.

Chyort wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I have never said that couriers, scouts, and commerce raiders were the ONLY ships that need Streak Drives. I said they should get Streak Drives FIRST because the flow of information is more time sensitive than the flow of missiles.

*Snip*
If for some reason they have to pick between using a streak drive on a courier boat, or an SD(P)... I have a sneaking suspicion they will pick the SD(P) every time. Because it can also bring harm to the enemy that much faster in addition to messages.

I don't know why they would hit that kind of a bottleneck though. I assume they would do both at the same time.

This is the foundation of the hypothetical limited Streak Drive debate. You say small ships should get them first, i say they should do both. Unless there is some unknown limitation on drives, in which case the SD(P) should get them.

Weird Harold wrote:

Chyort wrote:If they are limited on Streak drives, then it makes sense that they put it in the ship that is the most versatile.

The ship that is the most versatile would be the Heavy Cruiser or Battle Cruiser.

You then seem to say heavy cruisers or battle cruisers would be more versatile on a one for one basis. Where the whole advantage to heavy cruiser or battle cruisers are typically based on numbers.

Even completely ignoring the limited quantity aspect however, a heavy cruiser or battle cruiser in the age of Apollo/MDM/Pods has lost a lot of their versatility i would argue.
Why send in a medium sized/acceleration ship on a raid when you can launch from outside the hyper limit, and still hit your targets without ever going near the enemy?
Or use a carrier to send a swarm of far smaller and faster LACs.
Why send in a cruiser to scout? Two destroyers can pack more than enough RD's to blanket an entire system as has been repeatedly shown.

Some of this has been brought up in the books in one form or another. Thus the invention of the BC(P) and the Nike class. They are in a state of flux trying to work out how the class is going to evolve to meet existing/new requirements.

It is however a work in progress, and Apollo has once again upset everything. Until Keyhole 2 gets shrunk down enough for battle cruisers, i question their versatility. Go big or go small, leave the middle ground for convoy escorts and rear duties.

This is however something that could be argued so i will simply fall back on the hypothetical Limited streak drive quantity for simplicity sake.

A SD will be far more Versatile on a one for one basis than Any Other Class.

I hope this will clarify my stance somewhat. Assuming you bother to read all of this and not simply cherry pick a couple lines here and there and continue trying to troll away.


And since you seem to thrive on taking things out of context. I will provide you with more material!

Weird Harold wrote:It doesn't appear that either of you actually read my post.

That was aimed at someone else before i really joined the conversation.
But i find it funny considering you have done the exact same thing, so lets dig back some relevant quotes.

Weird Harold wrote:SD(P)s will get Streak Drives eventually. My only argument has been that it isn't a priority over the smaller classes which can be retrofitted, which Manticore needs more of NOW, and can make better use of the speed.
*Snip*
The consensus seems to be that Upgrades to SDs are impractical because of armoring and coffer-damming -- much the same argument given why the captured SLN SDs aren't worth anything.
*Snip*
As noted several times, the armoring and coffer-damming of SDs make an upgrade impractical -- unless the GA version isn't twice as big as existing Hyper-generators.

IOW, there won't be any retrofits of SDs.
*Snip*
Says just about everyone except you. The problem with retrofitting is SDs is armor and cofferdams. If necessary, a dispatch boat can be cut in half and a plug inserted
*Snip*
It isn't the pricetag of the drive, it is the pricetag of a new SD to put it in. Unless you're building a new SD for some other reason -- more firepower, better defenses, better survivability, etc -- the streak drive doesn't add enough new ability to offset the cost of a new ship.
*Snip*
It takes years to build a SD, it takes months to build a DB. It also takes billions to build SDs vs millions to build DBs.
*Snip*
I don't think retrofitting currently existing SDs is practical nor does it add sufficient capability to be economical.

You have repeatedly stated that SDs cant be upgraded.
You try to use the captured Solly SDs as proof of how SDs cant be upgraded.
And you have systematically ignored every argument pointing out the flaws in your claims and continued to plow ahead with the idea that SDs cant be upgraded.
While pursuing the idea that doubling the size of a hyper drive in a smaller ship with less room to spare as being far more feasible.

And you have the nerve to complain about people not reading your posts?

Chyort wrote:Heh, agree... But RFC has talked about what the detection ranges are eventually going to be, in his roundabout fashion. And i vaguely recall it being highly limited. So being able to do course corrections up to the last second with apollo could matter a great deal.

Using a single apollo launch seems to me like a decent method to get an eyeball into the right place in a hurry as well. For when you cant wait for an RD to maneuver into position.

Besides, the Sollies don't have the spider drive... So less missiles and more kills works well on them in the mean time.

Here I think you are making a mistake. Yes, RFC has discussed the range at which Mesa, with specialized sensors and knowing what they were looking for, could detect a Spider drive. That range is 1 light-second. There is no need to use Apollo FTL control at that range--don't even need to use single drive missiles. Just use grasers!

Unless the detection range can be extended hundreds of times more than 1 light-second, Apollo missiles are completely irrelevant against Spider drive ships.

It's not really a question of whether or not an existing SD(P) can be upgraded to use a streak drive, it almost certainly can. The question is whether it's possible to make the upgrade quickly and cheaply enough to be worth it. It was possible to upgrade Gryphon-class ships to fire the first-generation MDMs, but it quickly became apparent that it wasn't worth the time and money to do so.

So, is getting access to the iota and kappa bands worth taking an SD(P) out of service for three months of refitting, plus testing and working-up after the refit? IIRC, that's how long it took to repair Nike's reactor in SVW, and that was a battlecruiser, with far less armour, subdivision and cofferdamming than even a pre-war SD. Later-generation wallers are even more heavily protected to deal with the MDM threat, so it's going to take a lot longer than three months for a Medusa/Harrington or Invictus. What if the time required is six months? Eight? A year?

The only potential loophole is, as has been suggested, the possibility of refitting an SD(P) by closing off the forward end of the pod bay and fitting the streak drive there, in much the same was as an Agamemnon-class BC(P) was converted into the new royal yacht. If this is possible, then an SD(P) could probably be refitted a lot faster than by putting the streak drive in the place formerly occupied by the conventional hyperdrive.

Chyort wrote:And you have the nerve to complain about people not reading your posts?

After reading your entire post, let's try this from a different angle:

Why does the SLN's Frontier Fleet not have SDs? IIRC, Textev says Frontier Fleet has nothing bigger than a Battle Cruiser.

If SDs are so much more versatile, why doesn't Frontier Fleet have any?

Dafmeister wrote:It's not really a question of whether or not an existing SD(P) can be upgraded to use a streak drive, it almost certainly can. The question is whether it's possible to make the upgrade quickly and cheaply enough to be worth it. It was possible to upgrade Gryphon-class ships to fire the first-generation MDMs, but it quickly became apparent that it wasn't worth the time and money to do so.

So, is getting access to the iota and kappa bands worth taking an SD(P) out of service for three months of refitting, plus testing and working-up after the refit? IIRC, that's how long it took to repair Nike's reactor in SVW, and that was a battlecruiser, with far less armour, subdivision and cofferdamming than even a pre-war SD. Later-generation wallers are even more heavily protected to deal with the MDM threat, so it's going to take a lot longer than three months for a Medusa/Harrington or Invictus. What if the time required is six months? Eight? A year?

The only potential loophole is, as has been suggested, the possibility of refitting an SD(P) by closing off the forward end of the pod bay and fitting the streak drive there, in much the same was as an Agamemnon-class BC(P) was converted into the new royal yacht. If this is possible, then an SD(P) could probably be refitted a lot faster than by putting the streak drive in the place formerly occupied by the conventional hyperdrive.

Dafmeister, very well put and I think I am enlisting on your side of this many-cornered argument. I would say you're on Weird Harold's side, but this discussion (brawl) has gone so many directions it's hard to tell what's being argued by whom. (To borrow a story from history, a solider at the Battle of Shiloh was wounded was sent to the rear, only to find fighting in every direction. He returned to his unit and told his commander "Give me my musket back, Sir. This damn fight ain't got no rear.)

Anyway, I'll enter the lists (at least for one post) and see what happens next.

There seems to be several debates going all at once, overlapping and entwined, but here is what I see (and think).

REFIT of Current SD(P)'s with Streak Drive - I am in concurrence with Dafmeister on this,first Bolthole has to 'reverse engineer' the Streak Drive based on what Simoes knows, along with improvements that Manti/Grayson/Haven tech can contribute, and we simply don't know how long that will take. Might be a few months, might take a year or more. And then once you have it, you have to do the engineering and specs to put it into the SD(P), reserve the dock space and personnel to do the refit, and get the ships back from the lines (meanwhile you have to be building new ships, to keep up fleet strength).

It all comes down to resources and costs, and with both Manticore and Grayson out of the SD-building business for several years at least and the costs of moving along a war with the SL and eventually the MAlign, I think the Invictus/Medusa ships will eventually be like the Sphinx and Gryphon classes, still powerful but no longer top of the class.

As for the ships building in Haven now, depending how much Simoes knows about the size and the on-board location of the Streak Drive (he's a lab rat, not an engineer), ships that are early enough in the building process can be modified to provide space to accomodate the Streak Drive, even if it is not fully developed yet. These ships will be designed with ease of retrofit already in mind (and with cost/time already planned for).

Eventually, all SD's coming out of the yards at Haven (and eventually, Manticore, Grayson, and probably Erewhon) will have Streak Drives--Guess we'll call them SDP(F)ast Ships.

Small Ships vs Large Ships. We know from textev that Streak Drives can go into dispatch boats and ships as large as a BC (Asimonova's 'yatch', IIRC). And on economies of scale, it will probably be easier to refit 10 dispatch boats or DD's with versions of the Streak than one BC or SD--not so much armor in the way, and if you have to build new to accomodate, smaller ships can come of the line a lot faster and in larger numbers than the bigger ships. So refit or new build, smaller ships are more likely to be in action with the streak drive than SD's.

Tactical vs Strategic. I tend to come down on Weird Harold's side of the discussion. Until the 20th century, larger ships were generally slower than their smaller escorts/scouts and so far in the Honorverse that has held (all ships may have a 'top speed', but smaller ships can get to it faster).

He made the point that 'the battle doesn't start until the big guys show up' (I am free-associating words, so there may be some flex there). While "getting there first with the most men." is very critical, if the enemy shows up sometime later for battle and has Abrahms Tanks to your Shermans, you're still going to have a Pretty Bad Day. And until someone begins to catch up with the Haven Sector, that is the situation that prevails in combat in the Honorverse.

And while the point of being able to do 40% more mission-tasks is important, having your ships shuttling back and forth to Haven for refit is also going to impede operations...and probably leave you with mixed squadrons, some (Fast) and some not.


So, to answer the OP (so many pages ago), yes, I think we will see a Streak Drive SD...just not as soon as some are thinking.


IMHO as always. YMMV.

Dafmeister wrote:It's not really a question of whether or not an existing SD(P) can be upgraded to use a streak drive, it almost certainly can. The question is whether it's possible to make the upgrade quickly and cheaply enough to be worth it.

I think that most of the posters on this thread agree that retrofit is possible, it just isn't practical -- reasons vary on why it isn't practical, but general agreement that it is not practical.

Hutch wrote:...

So, to answer the OP (so many pages ago), yes, I think we will see a Streak Drive SD...just not as soon as some are thinking.

You pretty well summed up my position.

Eventually, most SDs will have Streak Drives, but there is going to be a fairly long period where there will be a mix of Slow-SDs and Fast-SDs while virtually every other class of ships will all be "Fast-ships."

Weird Harold wrote:

Hutch wrote:...

So, to answer the OP (so many pages ago), yes, I think we will see a Streak Drive SD...just not as soon as some are thinking.

You pretty well summed up my position.

Eventually, most SDs will have Streak Drives, but there is going to be a fairly long period where there will be a mix of Slow-SDs and Fast-SDs while virtually every other class of ships will all be "Fast-ships."

I respectfully disagree with your last sentence. While I concur that there may be a compelling need to convert some of the 'smaller' ships (BC's down to dispatch boats), I doubt that all will be modified--the lack of yards due to Oyster Bay applies just as much to CA's and DD's as it does to SD's (albeit Manticore and Grayson may re-establish that capability sooner than SD production) combined with refit costs (lower than SD's, but still significant if you do all the ships) and the need for smaller ships to be on missions and not in the yards, tends to predicate against that.

Not to mention that we know Manticore still has much older ships in service (see chapter one, A Rising Thunder) and there is no reason to believe that Haven isn't the same way (heck,they might even still have a BB or two in service). I doubt they will be refit with Streak, albeit they might still be of service (pirate-killers).

I do think the next classes of lighter ships will have Streak Drives and they will be in service in much greater numbers sooner than the next-gen SD's will.

We shall see, eventually.

Chyort wrote:Snip...
We know the streak drive is roughly double the size of a standard drive... Any ship still at an early stage of construction could be modified to double or a touch more of the space required. Thus you are sure you have room to upgrade down the road... You don't always have to make an entire new generation just for an upgrade, as long as you plan on upgrading from the start.

My bold

We the readers know and so do the Malign, but the GA does not know, so how are they going to make allowance for the size of something they don't know about?


T&R
GJS