Insanity: Screening elements in the HV

tlb wrote:But there is a tremendous market in the Core that would be ill-served by a financial market that was not the Core and using Solarian money.

Jonathan_S wrote:And as far as we can tell something like 2/3rds of the Old League would have lower lag communications with Sol than with Manticore -- so it'd make more sense for Core's financial markets to be hosted on Earth. (It's only those near or beyond Beowulf that could get messages from Manticore faster than from Sol)

Note that the quote says there is a financial market of unknown size at Centauri, which would be using Solarian money.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:But there is a tremendous market in the Core that would be ill-served by a financial market that was not the Core and using Solarian money.

Jonathan_S wrote:And as far as we can tell something like 2/3rds of the Old League would have lower lag communications with Sol than with Manticore -- so it'd make more sense for Core's financial markets to be hosted on Earth. (It's only those near or beyond Beowulf that could get messages from Manticore faster than from Sol)

Note that the quote says there is a financial market of unknown size at Centauri, which would be using Solarian money.

Neither of you seem to get it. Sol's financial markets are hosted on Earth, or somewhere local to the SL. I never questioned that. There will always be a local market. What you don't seem to get is that those markets are being driven by the data coming out of the MBS! That is just the way it is. There are Manticoran businesses -- insurance companies, lenders, advisors etc. -- that are operating inside the SL; probably right on Earth itself. SL insurance companies would go belly up without the data from the MBS. They wouldn't be able to compete with their Manticoran competitors. Any city has to have a local market. Period. Why would -- indeed why should -- that change? Do you not think there are Manticoran businesses operating in the SL?

Sure there are. And if those insurance companies, banks and lenders, analysts, advisors and stocks and bonds companies have MBS data and Sol does not, who do you think SL citizens will do business with? Manticoran businesses would be offering lower interest rates, lower mortgages and much more lucrative deals on stocks and bonds, etc. So yes. There is a lot of trading going on in the SL, but you can bet Manticoran companies are right in the midst. And probably influencing prices. The bottom line will trickle all the way down to the SL from the MBS. That's just how business and economics work.

penny wrote:Neither of you seem to get it. Sol's financial markets are hosted on Earth, or somewhere local to the SL. I never questioned that. There will always be a local market. What you don't seem to get is that those markets are being driven by the data coming out of the MBS! That is just the way it is. There are Manticoran businesses -- insurance companies, lenders, advisors etc. -- that are operating inside the SL; probably right on Earth itself. SL insurance companies would go belly up without the data from the MBS. They wouldn't be able to compete with their Manticoran competitors. Any city has to have a local market. Period. Why would -- indeed why should -- that change? Do you not think there are Manticoran businesses operating in the SL?

Sure there are. And if those insurance companies, banks and lenders, analysts, advisors and stocks and bonds companies have MBS data and Sol does not, who do you think SL citizens will do business with? Manticoran businesses would be offering lower interest rates, lower mortgages and much more lucrative deals on stocks and bonds, etc. So yes. There is a lot of trading going on in the SL, but you can bet Manticoran companies are right in the midst. And probably influencing prices. The bottom line will trickle all the way down to the SL from the MBS. That's just how business and economics work.

Why would that be true if the League is the largest economy (which is it) and data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore?

Sure, Manticore has the fastest information flow for the Verge. But the Verge economy is nearly an irrelevancy to the League economy. Parts of it mater to some transtellars -- but that's about it.

penny wrote:
Neither of you seem to get it. Sol's financial markets are hosted on Earth, or somewhere local to the SL. I never questioned that. There will always be a local market. What you don't seem to get is that those markets are being driven by the data coming out of the MBS! That is just the way it is. There are Manticoran businesses -- insurance companies, lenders, advisors etc. -- that are operating inside the SL; probably right on Earth itself. SL insurance companies would go belly up without the data from the MBS. They wouldn't be able to compete with their Manticoran competitors. Any city has to have a local market. Period. Why would -- indeed why should -- that change? Do you not think there are Manticoran businesses operating in the SL?

Sure there are. And if those insurance companies, banks and lenders, analysts, advisors and stocks and bonds companies have MBS data and Sol does not, who do you think SL citizens will do business with? Manticoran businesses would be offering lower interest rates, lower mortgages and much more lucrative deals on stocks and bonds, etc. So yes. There is a lot of trading going on in the SL, but you can bet Manticoran companies are right in the midst. And probably influencing prices. The bottom line will trickle all the way down to the SL from the MBS. That's just how business and economics work.

The Junction and MBS/SEM are a conduit for information that doens't have to ever touch manticore, just carry though the Junction from various points on courier ships. Manticore and its citizens as a whole have a lot of wealth and income, much of which is driven now by its merchant shipping and trade. They INVEST in a lot of things outside of Manticore because thy can find good places to grow their money beyond transport and shipping.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Neither of you seem to get it. Sol's financial markets are hosted on Earth, or somewhere local to the SL. I never questioned that. There will always be a local market. What you don't seem to get is that those markets are being driven by the data coming out of the MBS! That is just the way it is. There are Manticoran businesses -- insurance companies, lenders, advisors etc. -- that are operating inside the SL; probably right on Earth itself. SL insurance companies would go belly up without the data from the MBS. They wouldn't be able to compete with their Manticoran competitors. Any city has to have a local market. Period. Why would -- indeed why should -- that change? Do you not think there are Manticoran businesses operating in the SL?

Sure there are. And if those insurance companies, banks and lenders, analysts, advisors and stocks and bonds companies have MBS data and Sol does not, who do you think SL citizens will do business with? Manticoran businesses would be offering lower interest rates, lower mortgages and much more lucrative deals on stocks and bonds, etc. So yes. There is a lot of trading going on in the SL, but you can bet Manticoran companies are right in the midst. And probably influencing prices. The bottom line will trickle all the way down to the SL from the MBS. That's just how business and economics work.

Why would that be true if the League is the largest economy (which is it) and data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore?

Sure, Manticore has the fastest information flow for the Verge. But the Verge economy is nearly an irrelevancy to the League economy. Parts of it mater to some transtellars -- but that's about it.

Ah, but Beowulf is the closest inhabited planet to Sol, and Manticore is essentially 1 day away from Beowulf.

In other words, Manticore is essentially the 2nd closest inhabited System to Sol, so has faster data communications to Sol than 99.9% of all human systems.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Why would that be true if the League is the largest economy (which is it) and data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore?

Sure, Manticore has the fastest information flow for the Verge. But the Verge economy is nearly an irrelevancy to the League economy. Parts of it mater to some transtellars -- but that's about it.

Ah, but Beowulf is the closest inhabited planet to Sol, and Manticore is essentially 1 day away from Beowulf.

In other words, Manticore is essentially the 2nd closest inhabited System to Sol, so has faster data communications to Sol than 99.9% of all human systems.

Hmm. Sigma Draconis is "little more than forty light-years from Sol"; I thought there were closer inhabited systems than that.

But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.

Theemile wrote:Ah, but Beowulf is the closest inhabited planet to Sol, and Manticore is essentially 1 day away from Beowulf.

I don't remember that being stated anywhere. I don't think it's true.

Beowulf was the first successful colony expedition, but that does not imply Sigma Draconis is the closest system with inhabitable planets. In fact, knowing that Tau Ceti contains an inhabitable planet implies it isn't. And, of course, the Epsilon Eridani system, at a mere 10.5 light-years, of the Eridani Incident fame and the resulting Eridani Edict.

There are many reasons why closer systems may have been bypassed, like uncertainty at the time of the launch of whether the target planet was truly inhabitable or not. And it's also very likely they weren't bypassed, but their colonial expeditions failed whereas the Beowulf one succeeded. Others may have laid claims to closer systems and were outfitting their ships when the Beowulf Expedition launched. And other closer systems may have become viable targets as some terraforming techniques became perfected in the years since Beowulf was settled.

Moreover, some of the closer systems to Sol may have been colonised even without an inhabitable planet. We don't hear about that in the HV almost at all (Yildun is an exception), but if we can launch multi-generational colony ships, we can make multi-generational habitats too. For example, even if there are no inhabitable planets in either Alpha Centauri A or B, someone may have sent mining expeditions and later settled the system and thus it might now be a League member with a large economy.

Jonathan_S wrote:But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.

That also misses other wormholes that may connect to systems on the opposite side of Sol from Sigma Draconis. Therefore, there may be systems well past Sigma Draconis that are closer to Sol in terms of travel time than to Sigma Draconis. Though given a roughly random distribution of wormholes, we ought to expect the opposite to apply too, bringing the number back to around half (not a quarter).

That said, wormhole distribution does not appear to be random and not all wormholes are created equal. Those fully held by League members may have less bureaucracy to transit than a foreign-held one.

penny wrote:Neither of you seem to get it. Sol's financial markets are hosted on Earth, or somewhere local to the SL. I never questioned that. There will always be a local market. What you don't seem to get is that those markets are being driven by the data coming out of the MBS! That is just the way it is. There are Manticoran businesses -- insurance companies, lenders, advisors etc. -- that are operating inside the SL; probably right on Earth itself. SL insurance companies would go belly up without the data from the MBS. They wouldn't be able to compete with their Manticoran competitors. Any city has to have a local market. Period. Why would -- indeed why should -- that change? Do you not think there are Manticoran businesses operating in the SL?

Sure there are. And if those insurance companies, banks and lenders, analysts, advisors and stocks and bonds companies have MBS data and Sol does not, who do you think SL citizens will do business with? Manticoran businesses would be offering lower interest rates, lower mortgages and much more lucrative deals on stocks and bonds, etc. So yes. There is a lot of trading going on in the SL, but you can bet Manticoran companies are right in the midst. And probably influencing prices. The bottom line will trickle all the way down to the SL from the MBS. That's just how business and economics work.

Jonathan_S wrote:Why would that be true if the League is the largest economy (which is it) and data can get from the majority of League systems to Sol faster than it can to Manticore?

Sure, Manticore has the fastest information flow for the Verge. But the Verge economy is nearly an irrelevancy to the League economy. Parts of it matter to some transtellars -- but that's about it.

Consider that if a financial market at Manticore were so important to the League, then Manticore would not be considered a two-bit nation out in the boondocks by the majority of the citizens. The only League entities that even have cause to consider Manticore in their daily lives are the Solarian Navy (Battle and Frontier Fleet prior to the conflict) and the various freight companies that are jealous of the wormhole connection.

Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. Sigma Draconis is "little more than forty light-years from Sol"; I thought there were closer inhabited systems than that.

But also, that doesn't make the rest of the League to Manticore faster than the rest of the League to Sol. (If nothing else over a quarter of the League would have to travel past Sol to reach Beowulf) Even if it takes longer for other massively wealthy Core worlds information to reach Sol that it takes Sol's information to reach Manticore it still makes sense for the financial markets to be at Sol as long as most of the other massively wealthy Core worlds information can reach Sol before that same information can reach Manticore.

Draw a direct line from Sol to Beowulf and bisect it with a plane perpendicular to that line. Any system on the Beowulf side of the plane can reach Beowulf faster and any system on the Sol side can reach Sol faster. So ignoring wormhole traffic and assuming the Core Worlds are evenly spread around Sol, that would make the fraction closer to one half.