"Obsolete SDs" Waste not...

WeirdlyWired wrote:

SYED wrote:While a huge investment, they could really deter pirates, and due to size be better at absorbing damage from such enemies

And these capital ships are STILL a century out of date, Highly manpower intensive, maintenance hogs. and once you shoot the pitifully small magazines dry, HOW in [expletive deleted] are you going to rearm them? Why train a huge (couple of thousand) officers and enlisted for a one trick pony? and that is after you train the trainers on obsolete garbage...

Sounds like Travis Uriah Long days after completing basic and moving to tech school. And why would you want to face even surplus Solly ships on an equal footing?

To be fair SYED was responding to a post about using captured CAs, not the SDs the thread started off talking about. Those aren't as insanely manpower hungry or difficult to keep in service - but they aren't trivial either.

I still don't think they're useful given that the Talbott Quadrant worlds got RMN LACs and system defense pods. A couple ex-SLN CAs aren't going to add a useful amount of defensive firepower to that mix - though I guess they might provide a visual deterrent to Pirates too stupid to have heard about the effectiveness of RMN LACs + Pods.


But rebutting a post about cruisers by talking about difficulties of SDs is slightly off target

In the course of several battles the Empire has captured 156 SD; approximately 131 other warships and 79 "support ships. The "Support ships" will be valuable as they can be used as it and this pool of ships will contain 2-4 fleet repair vessels, which are especially valuable at this time. However many writers will quickly suggest that the warships are obsolete and should be scrapped. Although the first part of the statement is true: the real question is can a star nation that has no shipbuilding capacity rush to hastily discard usable ship before exploring ways to refit them into useful additions to the fleet. Having served in the USN at a time when we "made do with old ships", I think I can say that most of the nay sayers are a little hung up on the weapon system and not the hull: upgrading weapons systems can usually be shoehorned into an old hull design.

The Basics
The core books have stated that the Solarian Navy has good basic electronics, power systems and modern armor. But the software is poor, many of the weapon systems are obsolete and the ships are not as automated as Manticore is use too. In order to make the solarian ships usable one has to be able to refit them in a way that meets all the following:

1) The refitted ships need to be able to fight Manticores current enemies which is the Solarian League; with a significant combat advantage.
2) The capture equipment needs to be refitted and crewed in a way that does draw resources from the first line Manticore Fleet.
3) Need to fill a mission that justifies the cost of refitting.


Battle Cursers and Cruisers:
The fleet has never had enough "light" units as they are needed to pricket systems, protect commerce screen fleet elements, scouting and combat slavery. The Imperial Navy has captured from the Solarian League somewhere near 63 Battle cruisers; 12 Heavy Cruisers and 50 Light Cruisers. Solarian light units do not have "modern" inertial compensators thus they are not going to be usable in modern fleet formations. However they are more than capable of combating pirates as is and convoys of merchant ships are not going to be conduction high speed maneuvers. In addition there is one overlooked "advantage" of these ships: they are designed in the "old manpower intensive school" and can be manned with crews not as heavily cross trained or technically savvy as Manticore usually requires; thus these ships may be manned by crews drawn mostly citizens from the Talbott Quadrant or given to systems newly liberated from the tender mercies of "Frontier Fleet". Therefore we propose that these ships be "assigned" to the Talbott Quadrant Defense Force after undergo some modest upgrades in the Quadrant.
Since these ship are mostly a stopgap measure until construction of modern units can be undertaken, we propose that the following modest refits using existing Havenite equipment (at the time of the armistice) as this material will not draw on supplies and material needed by first line fleet units. The Havenites will be upgrading their fleet weapon systems and thus will have a surplus of weapon systems in stock as well as production lines that can make parts while they await retooling. The proposed refit will consist of upgrading the ships fire control, point defense systems and ECM suites; installing bow and stern walls; and designing and installing a mechanism to carry missile pods. We do not believe that replacing the internal missile launchers can be accomplished without a total rebuild, thus we propose to install a missile pod rail system on the exterior of the vessels. There is no reason that the rail launch system used on Q ships could not be installed on the exterior of a ship. The logical place for such an installation would be along the belly or roof of the vessel. A few missile pods will be more than adequate for protecting a convoy from Solarian raiders or dispatching pirates.
The actual refit may not interfere with existing building projects. Since have working power plants and sizable crew accommodations and well as a large boat of ships boat, thus the ships can function as the core of a "dispersed yard" during the refit process and thus the refits will not require existing shipyard space. We propose that this work be done in the Talbott Quadrant (or possibly in Silesian Confederation). By refitting the vessels in the Quadrant and using Havenite components the process would not distract from the rebuilding effort in Manticore. One possible way of speeding the process along would be to recruit advisors from the Haven as there are significant numbers of managers with experienced in training workers with marginal education and installing Havenite components.


Captured Destroyers
The fleet has also captured approximately 60 Solarian Destroyers. Although these ships could be refitted as additional light units as proposed for cruisers; we suggest that they may be better utilized as explorer vessels. The presence of "invisible" ships presents the possibility that new shipyards in Manticore and Grayston would be vulnerable to repeat attacks. It is thus desirable to adopt the approach the Republic of Haven and build secret satellite yards. The captured Solarian Destroyers could be refitted quickly as survey/exploration vessels. These refit could also be done in Talbott or even Silesia as they would involve sensor upgrades, increases drone storage and addition of laboratory space for the analysis of scientific samples. The discovery of habitable planets is desirable in the long term, but it should be noted that a single large metallic asteroid has more accessible building material than any inhabitable planet and thus the most desirable systems for shipyards would be ones with large metal rich asteroid belts. The crews for these vessels could be drawn from the merchant service and from civilian volunteers. As these vessels are designed in the old manpower intensive school and will have some highly trained scientist onboard; the vessel could also serve as a way to improve the education of Talbott Quadrant citizens looking to enter the navy.


Super Dreadnaughts:
There are several traditional roles for old battleships: training ships; system defense; and fleet repair ships (FRS). Nearly half of the captured SD are damaged to varying degrees, thus it would be best to divide the ships into two categories: undamaged vessels which may serve as training vessels or system defense, and damaged ships which may better serve as disarmed hulls converted for other uses.

System Control Battleship
Although a conventional Dreadnaught cannot launch vast missile salvos, there is no technical reason that the ships cannot control vast numbers of pre laid pods. If one recalls the original intention of Podnaughts was to augment conventional ships by passing off control of missile pods to conventional ships. Thus we propose to refit the 76 undamaged and any moderately damaged SD as "System Control Battleship (SCB)" which fill the role of mobile control platforms for the proposed system defense pods to augment the proposed immobile space stations. The reliance on immobile stations may leave these systems susceptible to being scouted by hostiles and having the defense station destroyed using long range ballistic near "C" missile strikes. Furthermore the mobility of SCB's would permit them to be deployed into newly liberated systems. The proposed name "System Control Battleship (SCB)" has the purpose of distinguishing these vessels from fleet elements and thus avoid confusing them with modern dreadnaughts.
The conversion of these captured ships will require the following refits: 1) significant upgrades to fire control including keyhole II upgrades to fully utilize system defense missile pods; 2) replacement and augmentation to the point defense systems; 3) FLT communication; and 4) new and upgraded electronic warfare systems. Additional cubage may be acquired by eliminating the marine contingent (crew quarters, armory and assault boat bays) and reducing internal missile storage. We see no reason to remove the existing beam weaponry or any systems unless the space is need for the required refit equipment. In addition we suggest that the external pod rail launch system proposed for cruiser refits be installed on the SCB's as this would provide some flexibility in deploying a modest number of pods. The logical place for such an installation would be along the belly or roof of the vessel.
The large accommodations of the proposed SCB's would permit these ships to function as training vessels.

Mobile Ship Yards
The capture of 80 damaged (and some very severally so) Solarian SD presents a large number of hulls which may not be worth repairing and refitting as warships presents planners with functional hulls which can be configured for other purposes. These ships have multiple powerful fusion generators and large crew accommodations, significant computer facilities and numerous boat bays and if one removes the armaments (except point defense) there is a lot of room for fabrication equipment. Thus we propose that some or all of these crippled SD be utilized as the core of new dispersed ship yards. If one retains the drive nodes, these shipyards could be moved when not building ships or when a treat requires evacuation or evasion. Of course movement would require one to abandon current construction, but it could save the valuable, highly trained work force and critical fabrication equipment. One intriguing possibility would be to have the rebuilding of the Solarian SD into mobile ship yards conducted in friendly star nations with shipyards with a technology base close to Manticores (Erewhon, the Anderman Empire) which are not engaged in the current conflict and then move the new yards back to Manticore. One alternative twist to the mobile shipyard concept, would be to rebuild several ships as missile factories or with other essential manufacturing capacity.

rdelorme16 wrote:The Imperial Navy has captured from the Solarian League somewhere near 63 Battle cruisers; 12 Heavy Cruisers and 50 Light Cruisers. Solarian light units do not have "modern" inertial compensators thus they are not going to be usable in modern fleet formations.
[snip]

Since these ship are mostly a stopgap measure until construction of modern units can be undertaken, we propose that the following modest refits using existing Havenite equipment (at the time of the armistice) as this material will not draw on supplies and material needed by first line fleet units. The Havenites will be upgrading their fleet weapon systems and thus will have a surplus of weapon systems in stock as well as production lines that can make parts while they await retooling. The proposed refit will consist of upgrading the ships fire control, point defense systems and ECM suites; installing bow and stern walls

Just touching on one small part of this SoS tells us that adding a bow/stern wall to an older unit requires rebuilding the entire impeller rooms. "There's no way they could've refitted a bow wall without completely gutting her forward impeller rooms"
That is not a modest refit. (And if you were going to that much trouble you'd upgrade the compensator as well)


It was easy to field refit a stern wall onto Shrikes because their impeller nodes were already designed to be compatible with having the impeller wedge closed. But older impellers apparently can't handle that and you have to gut the rooms to install upgraded impellers and support equipment that can. Which, presumably, is why many (most, all?) older RMN designs still lack those features.

Jonathan_S wrote:To be fair SYED was responding to a post about using captured CAs, not the SDs the thread started off talking about. Those aren't as insanely manpower hungry or difficult to keep in service - but they aren't trivial either.

I still don't think they're useful given that the Talbott Quadrant worlds got RMN LACs and system defense pods. A couple ex-SLN CAs aren't going to add a useful amount of defensive firepower to that mix - though I guess they might provide a visual deterrent to Pirates too stupid to have heard about the effectiveness of RMN LACs + Pods.


But rebutting a post about cruisers by talking about difficulties of SDs is slightly off target

The problem with deploying obsolete CAs and DDs is that they will face raiders using the same or larger classes. So you are going to put a lot of effort into running ships that are not a major deterrent to the most likely threats. Planets capable of maintaining warships really won't have any trouble with manning any reasonable sized fleet. 0.1% of a billion is a million people.

Beggars can't be choosers, but consider tHoQ with the Masadans running a CL, or with them running a SD. Both with the same level of skill they demonstrated with their BC. Who wins?

Please note that I am suggesting that refits serve as a stop gap measure, they do not have to meet current Manticore or even Haven standards. They have to be able to beat Solarian and Pirate vessels. I do not recall Manticore or Haven selling its tech to either of those enemies.

Please recall that the first bow and stern wall were added to ships by placing them on the exterior of the ship and that the ships could not accelerate when the wall was raised, but when a missile storm is inbound how long are you willing to lose maneuvering for defense. I also recall that this early version of the bow wall was refitted into much of the existing fleet (as stated in one of the books: I am sorry but mu books are at my nephews so it will be a few days before I can give title and page number).

As for new inertial compensators; I assume that they are like missile production; recently destroyed. I also assume that long term Manticore is going to export the vessel to minor systems; thus one may not want to put your best hardware where spies are very likely going to get a good look at it.

I did mentioned SD, but as a platform to control system defense pods; training ships and converted to function as construction vessels.

rdelorme16 wrote:In the course of several battles the Empire has captured 156 SD; approximately 131 other warships and 79 "support ships. The "Support ships" will be valuable as they can be used as it and this pool of ships will contain 2-4 fleet repair vessels, which are especially valuable at this time. However many writers will quickly suggest that the warships are obsolete and should be scrapped. Although the first part of the statement is true: the real question is can a star nation that has no shipbuilding capacity rush to hastily discard usable ship before exploring ways to refit them into useful additions to the fleet. Having served in the USN at a time when we "made do with old ships", I think I can say that most of the nay sayers are a little hung up on the weapon system and not the hull: upgrading weapons systems can usually be shoehorned into an old hull design.

Snip remainder...

Bold mine

It's funny that you point out what I highlighted above, then fail to realize that shipbuilding capacity is what is needed to convert these ships to whatever you want to convert them to. Honorverse ships, even ISLN (Inferior Solarian League Navy) ships, are NOT something you cut into with an acetylene torch, or even a plasma cutter: They require something a bit more sophisticated, and even then, it's not an easy job of it.

I'm not going to reiterate what's been said in this and previous threads about this, except to say that once the infrastructure is in place to do the converting, WHY the HELL would you waste it on time-wasting and pointless converting of CRAP ships into something a little LESS CRAPPY, when you can use it to build new ships that are a century or more BETTER in every concievable way?

As has been said before, sure, you can do it, but WHY? No one has yet to give a practical reason for doing so, that doesn't require building the infrastructure needed to build new ships, nor why it should take precedence over the new-builds. Until and unless SOMEONE can come up with a realistic reason for it, the best use of these ships, no matter the class, is scrapping, target paractice, and maybe boarding action training for marines.

If your plan for the SDs could be accomplished about as well with freighters then you should just use freighters. There will be a fire sale on them soon as most of the transport companies in Manticore go bankrupt.

If really heavy armor, large caliber grasers and a large number of capital ship missile launchers isn't useful to what you want to do, then the SDs are not going to be very useful to accomplish that.

Jonathan_S wrote: .


But rebutting a post about cruisers by talking about difficulties of SDs is slightly off target

OK i stand abashed. SEM has lost how many MILLION personnel between BoM I & Yawata strike? They do n NOT have ANY spare personnel. Talbott Quadrant has 000.00 trained personnel.

Spathas or trebuchets, Manticore has only those currently in those pieces of junk. Where are they going to get more????? even for Cruisers. Ok you need to train a thousand officers and enlisted per cruiser. THEN retrain them once main line ships come off the ways.

AND you still have to have some trainers to learn that mishmash of computers and Manticoran software, once you get THAT to work. And your new crews are going to have less experience with that equipment than Solaran crews and "pirates" do. I would be morally averse to send people in ships to meet people in equal ships that know their systems better than my people know theirs. EVEN if its cruisers and battle cruisers.

Sarnow and the Anderman empire seem to be dealing with the most pernicious of Pirate issues. Of course there has been nothing but the briefest mention of Silesia over the past half-dozen books so that is speculation.

The difference in scale might make the decision to keep/scrap slightly less overwhelming. I suppose Barregos in the Maya sector would be willing to swap trebuchets for MK 15 DDMs for his new construction BBs.

WeirdlyWired wrote:Spathas or trebuchets, Manticore has only those currently in those pieces of junk. Where are they going to get more????? even for Cruisers.

More missiles isn't the hardest bit. IIRC, the early Grayson battle wall showed us that anyone's (capacitor-based) launchers can pretty much fire anyone's (capacitor-based) missiles as long as they can physically fit into the launch tube.

It would depend whether they have a capacitor missile model in use which can fit into the Solly launchers. They probably do - even if it entails dropping a grade, like the Cataphracts do anyway(eg. SDs forced to fire BC-weight missiles).

munroburton wrote: It would depend whether they have a capacitor missile model in use which can fit into the Solly launchers. They probably do - even if it entails dropping a grade, like the Cataphracts do anyway(eg. SDs forced to fire BC-weight missiles).

Ok, so make the call DO they have stockpiled missiles that WILL actually fit Solly missile tubes? because I don't remember anywhere where the diameter of missle tubes was compared, except to say there's no way they can fire big assed missiles out of the tubes we saw on those BCs." Of course the Solly was referring to pod missiles. But the point remains: what ae you basing your argument on??? manty missiles have been growing in size.

And I do suppose you could tractor lots of pods to SDs and CAs. But you lose already slow accel rates once you deploy them outside your wedge.

One would actually have to plug in numbers whih we do not have and would start even moe arguments.

1) value of recycled materials including proximity (in system as opposed to unicorn belt)to construction facilities.
2) Cost of actually making conversions.
3) value of ship after conversion (including useful life expectancy)
4) manpower requirements
5) maintenance costs for useful life cycle
6) Scrap value after retirement from service (which happend to ALL ships)

We can make up [expletive deleted] all day. It becomes an economic decision in real life.

Granted some sips of whaever classes couls be pressed into service, like supply and repair ships to Silesia, Talbott, or Torch. Some could perhaps be moved to Talbott for system defense except how much additional system defense do Talbotters need?

That is a question for Alquezar et al to make. And some systems would always be screaming for more defense rather than whatever they have.

Maybe they would fill a defense gap for however much time it took for Mantcore to rebuild their capacity. But that is offset by Haven capacity,and slightly by Beowulf capacity.

Say even 4 yeas from Battle of Manticore, SDs are rolling off the lines. The deferred question then comes due. What do we do with these [even more by now] obsolete pieces of junk? No ship has an infinite shelf life, even in the Weberverse.

The argument comes down to what is the remaining shelf life of old ships of a second class navy to a first class navy? What are the costs of bringing trhem up to MINIMUM acceptable service conditions, what is the cost of maintaining them through their remaining service life?

Put numbers and we can argue (or not) your numbers. But at some point, not necessarily within the next 5 novels, they will be useless pieces of orbiting junk that will be scrapped and maybe reclaimed for their raw maerials.