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New passive defense system

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Re: New passive defense system
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:57 pm

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Dumb question how far out from the protected ship would you place the blocking units.

Another thought for something that could do this is the target drones. These were used on Abgail's middie cruise. If all you are trying to do is block a laserhead attack that will overload the active defenses something smaller might be better. I am remembering the difficult time on target computations that were used in that due to the rapid rotation. The target drones would be cheap fast to block an area then open it back up for when you need to communicate.

T2M

lyonheart wrote:Howdy all,

Its been quite a while since I suggested a new weapon (as in "and now for something completely different"), if I have; I don't recall what it was, but it was probably stupid or ignorant in some way, but here goes...

This is something I've been considering since ToF, using in tandem with heavily modified BCP's for hostile wormhole assaults, since the pearls make it plain DW considers BCP's a tactical dead end, and SDP's are too valuable to risk, etc.

It started with using a tractored pod to generate sidewalls, which could be carried in hyper or as needed, then detached and recovered when no longer required.

But given that missiles generate impeller bands that are impenetrable, and these are around a kilometer on a side (or is it ten km on a side?), that 'tame' missile drives could be used to provide the extra layers of close to distant 'sidewalls' for a ship.

These are not Ghost Rider drones, they have a simple military role to block laserheads.

Their acceleration need generally only match the warship they are in formation with, either above or below the wedges until incoming missiles are close, so drone drives might all that's needed, though I'm mainly considering 'just' modified missile drives.

Given the brevity of pod engagements, only a few minutes of power might be all that's needed to be effective (a second launch might be needed for extended engagements), while an RD drive could be recoverable, to be refueled and refurbished, expendibility is a major consideration.

Given the smarts drones and Apollo Command Missiles have demonstrated, the on board AI's ought to be able to handle the mission parameters.

They should be rather smaller than RD's or missiles since they don't need the recon sensor suites or warheads, so more can be carried in each dedicated pod.

Depending on cost, they could use either capacitor or fusion power, as they're not expected to last long.

They could operate from just beyond the ship's wedge, coordinating with the ships defensive fire, before turning perpendicular to the wedge (parallel to the sidewalls) to interdict any laserhead, and possibly out to the "CM-PDC gap"; ~100,000-200,000 km out.

Depending on the numbers launched these might form 'walls' or barriers to incoming missiles that didn't see them because of their stealth, or their proximity to the far more powerful ship's wedge.

The outer group might be launched with attack missiles, so their wedges are lost in the attack wave's clutter, so when they slow to 'stealth cruise' speed, no one notices, even if they have good RD's nearby, etc.

If RD drives are used, their extra time (~45seconds) to get on station could be a limitation, but pre-planning is the answer.

They might eventually carry ECM to suck missiles in before making their abrupt turns or rolls to use their wedges; but their primary purpose is to prevent laserheads from getting any hits through to the ship.

Granted any collision between missile wedges will vaporize both missiles, but it is the neutralization of laserheads that is the object of this system.

The potential to ruin missile attacks would push better AI's and sensors for standard attack missiles, until such were available, attacks themselves might be deterred.

The 'block' pods or individual units could be tractored to the ship's hull or stern hammerhead, and launched or released immediately upon emergence from a wormhole (while taking severe evasive action), in conjunction with other missile pod and RD launches...

Of course that means a return to energy weapons... :-)

Can anyone recommend a good name ?

Best wishes,

L
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by solbergb   » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:55 pm

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Minor nitpick.

It is only hundreds of years of peace. Although we have zero human society examples of what that does to you in terms of institutional arrogance/blindness to realities of war, what evidence we do have with mere decades of peace does tend to argue that you get some pretty strange ideas about what works. Read up on the Royal Navy in the late 19th century, or the USA "Big gun" navy in the 1930s and compare what actually happened in WWI and WWII.


Frontier Fleet and the SLN marines/army have been getting real combat in various police actions, although it is doubtful Frontier Fleet has been tested for real, any more than, say, a USA carrier strike group has been tested at any time since WWII.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by kzt   » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:49 pm

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solbergb wrote:Frontier Fleet and the SLN marines/army have been getting real combat in various police actions, although it is doubtful Frontier Fleet has been tested for real, any more than, say, a USA carrier strike group has been tested at any time since WWII.

Yeah, Operation Preying Mantis isn't exactly Leyte Gulf.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by namelessfly   » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:08 am

namelessfly

StarKnight and I have been arguing so much that it amazes me how much I'm in agreement with this post.

First off I miss typed in the post that StarKnight is quoting. I didn't mean to suggest that the SLN will figure out how to fight an intersteller war. The SL will be toast long before the have a chance. It is the various SDFs that will or perhaps already have been taking note of what is going on in the Haven sector and making their own contingency plans. As Weber has posted, Mesa and its allies have been trying to downplay developments in the Haven sector to discourage the SLN and SDFs from rearming. While this tactic has almost certainly been effective, it hasn't been 100 percent effective. Some of the SDFs have been paying attention and they've been doing the R&D, building up their industrial infrastructure, and perhaps building ships. Most importantly of all, the RF systems haven't been lulled into complacency. THeir industrial output is comparable to or greater than Manticore's and they are preparing to "recruit" more systems based on their industrial potential.

Secondly; I don't expect that any of the various SDFs, even the RF, will be taking offensive action against Manticore without "provocation." However; Manticore will be obliged to intervene in the disintergrating SL to discourage the formation of multi system empires that are big enough and tough enough to pose a threat in the future. THis is Honor Harrington's grand strategy. THis means that Matnicore can't remain isolationist, so Manty fleets will be getting into battles and someone will be retaliating against Manticore.

I agree that the psychological momentum of most Sollies will prevent them from responding rationaling until something disturbs that complacency. I'd expect that the destruction of half of the active, SLN SDs will disturb that complacency.

Star Knight wrote:@namelessfly
Would you please explain why the SLN can't figure out how to fight an intersteller war when it has just as much experience if not mroe than the RMN had at the beginning of the first Havenite War?

Cause they have been at peace for a millennia while Haven and Manticore had a little cold war going on for decades.
They will figure it out eventually. It ll be learning by doing for them, just as it was in the First Havanite War.
But they will be slower than Manticore and Haven. Its not about tech, its about the human mindsetting after a thousand years of peace. They are Sollies. Nobody dared to touch them for centuries. The Old League is the oldest stable governmental system in human history. For them, war in all its aspects is something they cant grasp anymore. They have no warrior /soldier culture as part of their society anymore. The remembrance of it is gone. Buried under centuries of stability and prosperity.

You ask if I wouldn’t act if my worldview collides with reality. No, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t want to face the truth since I cant understand and accept the new reality.
I will deliberately and knowingly lie to myself, I will refuse to believe whats happening.
Its nothing uncommon, happens all the time.
You mentioned Israel, so look at Iran for example. Building nukes, supporting terrorists, the region is headed for a major catastrophe within the next 20 years at best. Does anyone besides Israel care? Not really. The world doesn’t want to face the problem and think it through to the end. Cause they know that it will mean war.
Look at what happens in European societies these days. Their societies are swamped with immigrants and they are in big trouble because of it. Why dont they do anything about it?
Why do you think the Americans are unable to battle their current deficit?
Or why do you think it took England and France so long to confront Hitler?
Its not because they are to stupid to see whats going on.
Instead, it’s the same problem every time. You don’t act cause you don’t want to face reality with all its implications. Cause you don’t have the will and/or the power to change your way of life.
But anyway, you think that the Sollys will admit to themselves that the universe is ending and find the will to do something about it?
That ll be a first.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by namelessfly   » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:27 am

namelessfly

We can crunch the numbers and game out the various battles to prove that a squadron of KEYHOLE II capable INVICTUS class SD(P)s can shrug off some really big salvos. The various SDFs can and will do the same math. They'll reach the obvious conclusions.

If the various SDFs sieze any of the 8,000 SLN SDs that are in the reserves, they'll have to give them refits to activate them. The autocannon will be replaced by PDLCs. I'd bet that moast of the broadside GRASERS will also be replaced by PDLCs. Since they are unlikely to develope missile pods with on board fusion reactors or Haven's DONKEY, they'll install more tractors and lots and lots of mechanical harpoints with power couplings. How much you bet they'll take the opportunity to increase the number of fire control links by a factor of ten. Using the same technique that Adm Rozak used on his "Light Cruisers" would certainly do the trick. Their broadside missile launchers aren't much use anyway. Then they'll develope either multidrive or multistage missiles. They'll be too big for on board launchers but they can be put in limpetted pods.

Once any refits of existing ships are finished, the various SDFs will start building new ships. The design of an SD(P) is obvious. In many respects it is simpler to build than a conventional SD. They'll build them large, just like Haven did, and design them to handle really big missile pods incase they can't minitruize MDMs the way Manticore did. They'll also build system defense pods like crazy. However; the various SDFs start out with a better tech base then Haven had even when Haven was building the fleet that launched the second Havenite war that culminated in the Battle of Manticore. Given them a decade to prepare and they'll have better ships and missiles then Haven does. Some SDFs have been paying attention and they've been preparing for a decade or more. Mesa and the RF have been planning this evolution of events for centuries and have had many decades to prepare.

Of course Manticore will not have to cope with any of these fleets for decades if it reverts to isolationism. When it wakes up it will be confronted with empries far larger than itself and with comparable or better military technology.

The end result is that we will see various SDFs

solbergb wrote:Haven was getting hits with 24k missiles per wave when firing from two angles, one of which wasn't getting screened. Haven also has pretty effective EW missiles, something the SLN doesn't use yet at all (neither side had them at Torhc, for example).

A scientist class SD launches 32 missiles, so you'd need a fleet of 750 SD's to get a salvo density as large as we saw in Battle of Manticore, 1250 to get to 40k. 3rd fleet was mostly 1st gen Harrington/Medusas, as 8th fleet was getting all the keyhole ships, but I guess some of them might have received upgrades at some point after Buttercup.

40K is a pretty big salvo. It'll kill some lacs and ding up the SD's a bit in a 6 SD(P), 2CLAC squadron. But if you can't sustain the salvo (massive succeeding waves of 40k each) and aim it precisely (those 24K missiles were hitting 2 ships at a time, not spread over the whole fleet) a battle squadron of new-build ships would just shake off a wave like that with pretty much no impact on combat effectiveness.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by kzt   » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:53 pm

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The fastest way to improve the defenses of the SLN ships is to bolt on lots more CM guidance systems and supply the CMs via canisters from the main missile tubes. If by some freak you get to effective missile range you would still have some regular missiles in the magazine.

Of course, replacing any cannon with PDLC is essential also. Bolting on as many extra PDLCs as you can manage would seem highly useful too.

On the SLN SDs, the anti-ship lasers are pointless. The grasers are worth retaining, but not the lasers. Removing the entire laser requires serious work in a shipyard, but cutting off the power feed and the last few meters, then emplacing PDLCs and CM guidance modules on the freed-up surface might work.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by namelessfly   » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:10 pm

namelessfly

I misstyped "Graser" when I meant "Laser." Keep the Grasers which are somewhat effective and loose the lasers. Cannisters of CMs is also an interesting application of the broadside launchers.

kzt wrote:The fastest way to improve the defenses of the SLN ships is to bolt on lots more CM guidance systems and supply the CMs via canisters from the main missile tubes. If by some freak you get to effective missile range you would still have some regular missiles in the magazine.

Of course, replacing any cannon with PDLC is essential also. Bolting on as many extra PDLCs as you can manage would seem highly useful too.

On the SLN SDs, the anti-ship lasers are pointless. The grasers are worth retaining, but not the lasers. Removing the entire laser requires serious work in a shipyard, but cutting off the power feed and the last few meters, then emplacing PDLCs and CM guidance modules on the freed-up surface might work.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by solbergb   » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:22 am

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namelessfly wrote:We can crunch the numbers and game out the various battles to prove that a squadron of KEYHOLE II capable INVICTUS class SD(P)s can shrug off some really big salvos. The various SDFs can and will do the same math. They'll reach the obvious conclusions.


Well, they can run the math AFTER somebody has challenged the defenses of RMN and/or Haven who isn't one of them.

Right now, the only example with true outside observers is Monica. There were SDF types who studied the Havenite wars, but I'm pretty sure exact salvo densities and results would be classified by both sides.

Note that the Andies duplicated a lot of obvious stuff (pod layers, crude MDMs, probably clacs and some kind of strike LAC) but had no defensive doctrine at all until they joined the Alliance.

So the first wave of innovation will duplicate crudely some of the offense...pods, mdms, control channels. Then they'll finally have the range to test the defense and get zero hits.

Then they'll start working on things like EW heads for offense and worry that their own defensive doctrines can't do anything like what they ran into.
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by kzt   » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:31 am

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Observers would typically be on the ships in combat. They will have a pretty good idea what is happening, the same way the European observers at the Russo-Japanese war figured out what was going on, and got ignored at home.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_a ... panese_War
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Re: New passive defense system
Post by SWM   » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:02 pm

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I'm wondering where so many people got the idea that there were SDF observers around the Manticore-Haven wars. We know that there were some observers from tech firms, but I don't believe there is any text indicating that individual SDFs sent observers.
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