Haven Victorious

kzt wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Yup. Wasted effort setting up that horrible school system. If the pols had t send their kids to public schools, the schools would be much better.

The purpose of the pubic school system in DC and other large cities is to employ people who reliably vote for the correct party and whose union pays for their reelection campaign, along with the school system funneling money to the contractors who also reliably donate some percent of their contracts to that party.

The fact that some kinds actually get some approximation of a decent education is more or less a coincidence.

In almost all societies, it is the elites in charge who spend much of their time shafting the regular people. Schools are just the clearest example.

We are told that the public schools are wonderful and then you look at the statistics in urban districts. And they get around that by changing the statistics. In NYC for years there was a rule that kids with more than 10 UNEXCUSED absences in a semester would fail. A court ruled that unconstitutional. After all, it was ruining statistics. Now kids can show up less than half the time, miss most tests and get passing grades. More diplomas, aren't we wonderful!

And the elites go to tough schools. I worked at a top private school for a couple of years. I remember that the average GRADE size was between 25 and 40. I had a girlfriend who taught the second grade there. 36 kids and SIX regular teachers plus a reading specialist who only worked the first two grades, a math specialist who worked second through fourth, and a couple of teachers in the arts. It cost a fortune but they really did work to make sure no child would be left behind and began as soon as kindergarten.

Matt Damon, the actor, has given major speeches about his mother the public school teacher and how great public schools are. His two daughters attend a private school where tuition (which is only a piece of the full cost, albeit the major one) is around $40,000 a year EACH. But he advises "the people" to use the public schools.

This trend is carried through in the Honorverse: very clearly in Haven, of course. But the Sollies have all sorts of corruption that benefits the elite. And so does Manticore. Pavel Young outranked Honor even though he had never faced combat before the big battle in Short Victorious War. But he had connections and that won out over talent in terms of promotion.

And you can bet Abigail and Helen will be moved up quickly. That's the way of the world.

ldwechsler wrote:

kzt wrote:The purpose of the pubic school system in DC and other large cities is to employ people who reliably vote for the correct party and whose union pays for their reelection campaign, along with the school system funneling money to the contractors who also reliably donate some percent of their contracts to that party.

The fact that some kinds actually get some approximation of a decent education is more or less a coincidence.

In almost all societies, it is the elites in charge who spend much of their time shafting the regular people. Schools are just the clearest example.

We are told that the public schools are wonderful and then you look at the statistics in urban districts. And they get around that by changing the statistics. In NYC for years there was a rule that kids with more than 10 UNEXCUSED absences in a semester would fail. A court ruled that unconstitutional. After all, it was ruining statistics. Now kids can show up less than half the time, miss most tests and get passing grades. More diplomas, aren't we wonderful!

And the elites go to tough schools. I worked at a top private school for a couple of years. I remember that the average GRADE size was between 25 and 40. I had a girlfriend who taught the second grade there. 36 kids and SIX regular teachers plus a reading specialist who only worked the first two grades, a math specialist who worked second through fourth, and a couple of teachers in the arts. It cost a fortune but they really did work to make sure no child would be left behind and began as soon as kindergarten.

Matt Damon, the actor, has given major speeches about his mother the public school teacher and how great public schools are. His two daughters attend a private school where tuition (which is only a piece of the full cost, albeit the major one) is around $40,000 a year EACH. But he advises "the people" to use the public schools.

This trend is carried through in the Honorverse: very clearly in Haven, of course. But the Sollies have all sorts of corruption that benefits the elite. And so does Manticore. Pavel Young outranked Honor even though he had never faced combat before the big battle in Short Victorious War. But he had connections and that won out over talent in terms of promotion.

And you can bet Abigail and Helen will be moved up quickly. That's the way of the world.

Both of your posts support my original contention that this sort of corruption is not incremental to economic activity. The activity merely fixes a problem in a limited way the system generates a cross the entire system. The corrupt system wastes effort creating an undesirable outcome and resources that individuals have to expend more effort and sources to overcome.

After her performance in her Midshipwomen cruise, Abby Hearnes deserves to be promoted expeditiously.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:After her performance in her Midshipwomen cruise, Abby Hearnes deserves to be promoted expeditiously.

Indeed. Helen and Abby are part of the Coterie of Competence in the RMN not the Association of Aristo Arseholes.

ldwechsler wrote:
And you can bet Abigail and Helen will be moved up quickly. That's the way of the world.

At least so far, Abby and Helen have deserved their "Below the Zone" promotions and assignments.

Fox2! wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
And you can bet Abigail and Helen will be moved up quickly. That's the way of the world.

At least so far, Abby and Helen have deserved their "Below the Zone" promotions and assignments.

I freely grant that. And note that Paolo, not of the elites, was also rewarded. But most people never get to do that spectacular a job in a war. How much brilliance did any regular ranker, petty officer or lower ranking officer show against Filareta?

People just did their jobs.

And some were promoted in normal order.

But it never hurts to have a "rabbi" pushing you. And I am certain that Abby and Helen's social rankings were noticed.

Again, look at Honor versus Pavel Young at the start of this. Yes, Honor was pushed up AFTER the duel but not easily. It took years and an escape from Cerberus to move her to Admiral.

Note also White Haven's rank, the stories about the Webster family and the Trumans, etc.

And on the other side, in "Best Laid Plans" we have Honor herself worrying about whether she can get into the academy at all, even with her father being a commander, since she's only a commoner. In "Queen's Gambit", Mike Henke specifically reassures Prince Michael about the instructors at Saganami Island having "extra incentive" to work with him due to his rank if necessary, since they're even willing to work with her roommate's terrible math scores due to her tactical talent.

Haven crafted itself the world of the Dole, and then discovered that they couldn't support it from what they were taking in for taxes and tariffs and fees. The solution? Take over other systems and pump the money home. That, of course, includes goods (not particulary raw materials) but a massive amount of the money was spend supporting those on the Dole.

It's a circular and ever deepening problem. How do you support millions of people who don't actualy contribut to either thier own support nor to the engine of the System economy? They only consume, they don't produce.
This, of course, comes perilously close to injecting present goings on with Earth into the fictional world of the Honorverse. What is reasonable support to -nominaly- move people from needing almost compleat assistance into earning enough to support they and their children plus give those children sufficient (and practical) education to become individuals who support themselves and society. I can hear the maniacal laughter of political pundits and various proponants of several socital systems based on the supposed needs of the workers as they say: Yes, yes, all Animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

So Haven has been swallowing systems for more than 50 years and leaving primarily poverty and devistation (and massivly under-educated younger populations) wherever it takes control . What they can't do is motivate the Dole class, or the bureaucracy that now exits to control and manage it, to "improve" themselves. Well, they are motivated but not constructively. Free stuff and power to control the flow of Free Stuff and the Basic Living allowance appears to sit at the pinnacle of what people what.

Manticore has a differnent approach but it has also been bolstered by the Junction as a source of income and an access to markets. The rise of both the Manticoreian production engine and it's merchant marine are intertwined with the Junction. On the other hand, for the most part, if you want to get a better life on Manticor you don't depend on some Social Safety Net, you get the hell out there and work- hard, intelligently, gain skills/knowlege/experiene that makes you valuable in the marketplace.

Brigade XO wrote:H
(snippage)

Manticore has a differnent approach but it has also been bolstered by the Junction as a source of income and an access to markets. The rise of both the Manticoreian production engine and it's merchant marine are intertwined with the Junction. On the other hand, for the most part, if you want to get a better life on Manticor you don't depend on some Social Safety Net, you get the hell out there and work- hard, intelligently, gain skills/knowlege/experiene that makes you valuable in the marketplace.

Manticore provides value for money, providing economical access to markets that would either be denied, more expensive to reach, or take longer to reach. They don't go around freebooting their neighbors in exchange for the dubious blessings of the Dusquene Plan.

Fox2! wrote:Manticore provides value for money, providing economical access to markets that would either be denied, more expensive to reach, or take longer to reach. They don't go around freebooting their neighbors in exchange for the dubious blessings of the Dusquene Plan.

Other than the occasional park full of children...