SPOILER end of the MA

Sigs wrote:

pappilon wrote:
Not sure we care about SL corporations failing. A lot depends on the Chamber of Stars, specifically how soon they churn out a functional constitution; how many stars remain in the league, and how soon the new government can be installed. The sooner everything politically and economically return to pre-war status, the sooner Manticore's economy recovers.

We care because that is a source of finances, why not use the people who are at least partially responsible for the problems in the galaxy to start fixing them? A lot if not all of the corporations will be kicked out of the verge and protectorates thus their revenue streams would be significantly cut. If they were offered a way to remain afloat and use essentially League funds to build up the GA's infrastructure and people from League systems to work on bringing the education level up why not?

With falling revenues do those corporations have the capital to invest outside their core business? And with SOV as a guide, will those corporations necessarily be kicked out? Can some more equitable agreements be reached? it is after all, a Brave New World.

Rebuilding planetary education systems need a good dose of cash to hire and relocate educators, and further the professional standards of those you already have, but again throwing more than enough money into it doesn't make things move faster.

It does if those corporations bring educators from the League to help bring up the standard. It's not just money that they will be investing, it will be specialists an equipment.

Yhe money will/must buy all those things. Again to belbour the point: How much is enough and how much more produces diminishing returns? Improving the overall educational level of a society is a multigenerational thing. it is not something that can be sped up by the infusion of more funding. Sorry, one child can olnly learn so fast, In a prolong world where the oldest die off way more slowly, their reeducation is vitally important. And still there are human limits that more money, more computers, bigger campuses will not improve.

The Sol transtellars will now have to compete more for resources in The Verge which will still be their field for growth. Conversely, Manticoran shipping companies will have to do a lot of renegotiating to get back into the league's carrying trade again after Lacoon 1.

[quote] Or just show up. After all manufacturers in the League are as desperate if not more so than the GA.[/quote

Just showing up is good, reneging on contracts in the face of Lacoon 1 may not be without consequences, however. Yes, we had a Short Victorious War, the effects of Lacoon will be relatively painless, but there will still be hard feelings. If all it costs is money, those Manty Merchant Mariners will get off cheap.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:There was a Manticore investment corporation in the League whose funds were very useful at the start of the colony and was used to provide incentives to new arrivals after the plague years. I wonder if that fund still exists and how large it would be.

There was this little war...

Not an informative response... Are you suggesting that the fund was completely tapped durung the wars with Haven? Or that it was confiscated during the war with the League? What?

Don

-

pappilon wrote:Who knew the SLN Wall of battle was just so totally outclassed and outgunned, not by the RMN, but by the RHN? Yes they expected Filareta to get clobbered, they did not expect it to be such a seal hunt.

The MA most definitely should have... If they were planning for this for hundreds of years then when Roger began his buildup they should have started showing interest. So even if they didn't have examples of the technology they still should have known all about the SLN's shortcomings.

pappilon wrote:

Sigs wrote:If the choice is between quickly bringing the education level up and quickly industrializing the new member systems of the Empire or Protecting them I would always advocate for protection and security when the situation is as they are facing right now. building up your infrastructure and Education level is all fine and a noble cause but what happens when someone comes in to destroy or capture the industry and educated population and you have nothing to stop them with? As members of the Empire every system has the right to demand protection...adequate protection. Can't have a Home Fleet of 60 SD(P)'s if that represents 60% of your SD(P)'s because both Talbott and Silesia will be demanding SD(P)'s for protection and with good cause.


Now that the war with the League is effectively over the Merchant Marine can go back and start rebuilding revenue streams since the League would be happy to see their economy recover as well.

[Italics mine]

Don't the highlighted parts of your argument contradict each other? Unless you are wanting to defend from the MAlign? Which as things stand pretty much cannot be done witness the take down of Moriarty in Beowulf. Those mystery ships still cannot be detected.

Yes defense is important, but the MAlign has its own retrenching to do. Now is the time to concentrate more on bread and butter, less on guns and bullets. And no one is talking the elimination of the RMN and its commitments.

I don't see how they contradict each other. The League is going to be more than happy to get the Manticore Merchant Marine to start moving cargos from one system to the next, that has nothing to do with maintaining a strong defence.


As for the mystery ships? Wouldn't it be great to be able to reinforce the fixed defences with a few dozen SD(P)'s when the enemy comes knocking on a systems door? The RMN started the first Havenite war with 310 SD's and DN's when they had to defend 10-15 systems at most but now that they have 50-60 systems to defend they will maintain 120-150 SD(P)'s?

Sigs wrote:

pappilon wrote:Who knew the SLN Wall of battle was just so totally outclassed and outgunned, not by the RMN, but by the RHN? Yes they expected Filareta to get clobbered, they did not expect it to be such a seal hunt.

The MA most definitely should have... If they were planning for this for hundreds of years then when Roger began his buildup they should have started showing interest. So even if they didn't have examples of the technology they still should have known all about the SLN's shortcomings.

The MA became very interested once it became apparent that the game had changed in the Haven sector. However Roger very successful in concealing gram up to Buttercup. The MA has a very strong R&D of its own as the streak and the spider demonstrate. I suspect that they did underestimate the potency of the increase in missile range, numbers and accuracy diring the Haven wars.

Don

-

pappilon wrote:
With falling revenues do those corporations have the capital to invest outside their core business? And with SOV as a guide, will those corporations necessarily be kicked out? Can some more equitable agreements be reached? it is after all, a Brave New World.

Most if not all of those corporations come from core worlds where they may very well be able to get core worlds to invest and/or support their efforts in regards to the SEM. And true in some systems they might survive when the coal man is smart or decent and can see a way for his position to survive, but in the majority of systems? I highly doubt it. The first second the people realize the FF detachments are gone and the League is not backing up the government many will rebel and kick out their corrupt government and the trans-stellars along with them.

Yhe money will/must buy all those things. Again to belbour the point: How much is enough and how much more produces diminishing returns? Improving the overall educational level of a society is a multigenerational thing. it is not something that can be sped up by the infusion of more funding. Sorry, one child can olnly learn so fast, In a prolong world where the oldest die off way more slowly, their reeducation is vitally important. And still there are human limits that more money, more computers, bigger campuses will not improve.

True, but we are also not talking about technological societies that are comparable to 21st century America and Ancient Sparta. We are taking about people that for the most part have the most basic tools needed to build knowledge on. And to add to that, I am not saying that investing time and money will solve the problem in a year or two or even five. It will take just as long if the SEM disbanded the RMN and invested everything in building up the new territories as it would if the SEM strengthened the RMN and brought investment, technical advisors and educators from the League. The difference is that on the one hand the SEM invests alone while leaving their defences to wither and die while on the other hand they form close ties with multiple League member systems that invest in the SEM and still maintain sufficient defences.

Just showing up is good, reneging on contracts in the face of Lacoon 1 may not be without consequences, however. Yes, we had a Short Victorious War, the effects of Lacoon will be relatively painless, but there will still be hard feelings. If all it costs is money, those Manty Merchant Mariners will get off cheap.

There may be hard feelings but when the League needs their merchandize moved they will suck it up and form new relationships with shipping houses. With everyday your merchandise stays in an orbital warehouse you lose money, so getting an I'm sorry or some compensation might be worth less than getting your product moving. The SEM and strike a deal with the interim government of the League and promise that when a government is formed they will negotiate a way to settle the dispute but in the meantime everyone will benefit from going back to business as usual.

Sigs wrote: Which would mean absolutely nothing if the MA comes around and blows it up.

The MA has already proven it can operate undetected inside the best defended system. Making more ships of the type that have so far been totally ineffective in even noticing, much less engaging the MAN, is just pointless if your objective is to fight the MAN.

I think there are about 6000 SLN SDs that you could use that will be just as effective as a RMN SD(P).

The MAN can basically strike at will wherever they chose and whenever they choose at whatever target they feel like blowing up this week. The only reason that they haven't blown up Beowulf's industry and the construction in Grayson and Manticore is because they haven't chosen to.

n7axw wrote:

kzt wrote:There was this little war...

Not an informative response... Are you suggesting that the fund was completely tapped durung the wars with Haven? Or that it was confiscated during the war with the League? What?

Don

The final war happened. Pretty much every city was destroyed, some absurd percentage of the population died.

n7axw wrote:

Sigs wrote:
The MA became very interested once it became apparent that the game had changed in the Haven sector. However Roger very successful in concealing gram up to Buttercup. The MA has a very strong R&D of its own as the streak and the spider demonstrate. I suspect that they did underestimate the potency of the increase in missile range, numbers and accuracy diring the Haven wars.

Don

-

You are right, but it still seems silly to me that they would not be trying to get intelligence sources on the ground when the war started. After all this was shaping up to be the first major interstellar war in a long time as both sides had combined over 1000 BB's, DN's and SD's. That alone represented 40% of the SLN's active wall. I understand why the SLN didn't care, I don't understand why the MA didn't do everything in it's power to monitor the war, the commanders and the technology etc... more closely. After all they were planning on pitting the People's Republic against the League if I am not mistaken which means a pretty significant fail on their part.

kzt wrote:

Sigs wrote: Which would mean absolutely nothing if the MA comes around and blows it up.

The MA has already proven it can operate undetected inside the best defended system. Making more ships of the type that have so far been totally ineffective in even noticing, much less engaging the MAN, is just pointless if your objective is to fight the MAN.

I think there are about 6000 SLN SDs that you could use that will be just as effective as a RMN SD(P).

The MAN can basically strike at will wherever they chose and whenever they choose at whatever target they feel like blowing up this week. The only reason that they haven't blown up Beowulf's industry and the construction in Grayson and Manticore is because they haven't chosen to.

So disband the RMN. If 1000 SD(P)s are ineffective then 100 SD(P)s would be worse. Take out Mistletoe and the pods defending the systems of the GA and surrender. Its that simple. The GA is Screwed.


Or maybe if the RMN had dropped a drone from a Merchant ship at the outskirts of a system and let it come in under stealth it would have had the exact same effect. If I remember correctly the weapon that destroyed mistletoe was not dropped by one of the MA's invisible ships but it was dropped by a merchant ship the system authorities knew was there.