Tamaguchi's biggest Mistake in SoV

Hegemon wrote:Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Hegemon wrote:Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.

drinksmuchcoffee wrote:The fact that task force commanders are not clairvoyant is precisely why anybody with brains would leave a picket outside the hyper limit when entering a system where you don't know what opposition, if any, you would be facing.

I am surprised that it wouldn't be SOP.

Brigade XO wrote:If Byng (but then he was an idiot) then Crandall and then Fillerta didn't leave anybody outside the relevent system as a sentinel or possible courier to report on what happend (or provide an overview plus copies of transmissions) for the official record or watch their backs, why should anybody expect Tamaguchi to do so? If he had done it he might or might not have been thanked (because he would have gotten at least some hard data from SLN warships home to be analyzed) but it is not something SLN sees to have in it's tactical doctrine.

Hegemon wrote:
Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.

Maldorian wrote:

Hegemon wrote:
Even odder than that, 8 BCs and 8 DDs control a total of 500 Cataphract-C missiles each (62 missile per BC+DD), even though Admiral Filareta's SDs could control no more than 40 Cataphract-C missiles each (427 SDs could control 17000 missiles). It seems odd even for SLN a BC/DD pair can jointly control half again as many missiles as a SD.

Good point. Though remember the SLN SDs, despite having a lot of tubes for their tonnage, were not missile oriented ships (the glacial cyclic rate of their tubes is probably indirectly due to this). They were designed to harass and enemy battle line with missiles until they closed to the decisive energy range.

A BC, and certainly the lighter units, should be more missile oriented anyway

Plus:
a) Destroyers are small and nimble enough to spin to use both broadsides in a delayed launch double pumped missile salvo. So they'd inherently need at least twice as many control links per broadside as they have tubes.

b) The BC and DD designs appear to be significantly newer than the Scientist/Vega designs, so in addition to being inherently more missile focused were designed with knowledge of somewhat more capable missiles.

c) Frontier Force uses ships up to BC size in actual combat, and would presumably have been providing design feedback on newer classes based on actual combat results.

d) Since missiles are their primary offensive weapon they presumably devote a greater percentage of their broadside area to redundant fire control links - to preserve that offensive capability in the fact of battle damage (since you can't armor a control link's antenna

If you have a class with additional redundant control links you can (to the extend your tactical computers aren't a bottleneck) utilize that previously spare 'hot spare' capacity to control more missiles from your pods.



Still, now that you point it out, I am surprised that they could control, on average, ~50% more missiles than the SDs, More missiles per broadside area area, sure. But 50% more absolute missiles! Wow.

What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.

Maldorian wrote:What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Forgot about the control links, but didn't they have a breakthrough in control links with one of their new platforms?

Are you thinking about Aegis? That's defensive only - the SLN ripped out a couple broadside energy mounts and replaced them with additional CM control links. (And RFC has said in the past a CM control link isn't compatible with an offensive missile, it's smaller and had a much shorter working range; a tradeoff to let you carry enough of them)

But that's the only fire control 'breakthrough' I remember the League making.


I mean, in theory, there's probably nothing stopping them from pulling a few more energy mounts and slapping an extra offensive control link or two in - but we haven't read that they have; and that wouldn't make a major difference unless they fairly well gutted their energy range teeth.

Weird Harold wrote:

Maldorian wrote:What is with the battle of Torch? The Maya Forces use also Solarian Battle Cruiser. They replace some of their missle tubes (if I remember correct, replacing energy weapon would be better) with addoditional fire control links. If the solarian BC have so much Control Links at their basic configuration, that modification wouldn´t be nessasary.

The Maya forces used "Marksman" class "BCs" which are only remotely related to the SLN BCs they are listed as in the TOE. (Table of Equipment)

A Marksman is essentially half of a SD(P) with the missiles launched from the modular arsenal ships that are the other half of a Mayan "SD(P)" I don't recall all of the details off-hand, but the Marksman-class ships don't really need on-board missile tubes, they just need enough to show on the paperwork for the SLN that they're in the "BC" classification. The Mayan arsenal ships are closer to the RMN's FSV Charles Ward in their modular construction than they are to the standard SLN missile colliers. (Maybe inspired the RMN's FSVs?)

In no way can the Mayan forces in the Battle of Torch be used as a guide to what the SLN deploys.

Maya is building a semi-modern, interim, force that they can get the SLN to pay for and carry on the books as "normal" SLN equipment. As soon as Erewhon is geared up to build SD(P)s they'll be deviating more openly from SLN equipment. (some of Maya's new-model ships are carried on the books, for SLN consumption, as Erewhon's ships manned by Mayan/SLN "instructors.")

Potato wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The Maya forces used "Marksman" class "BCs" which are only remotely related to the SLN BCs they are listed as in the TOE. (Table of Equipment)

A Marksman is essentially half of a SD(P) with the missiles launched from the modular arsenal ships that are the other half of a Mayan "SD(P)"

Uhh...no. The Marksman-class are CLs roughly the size of a Star Knight. By no means are they anything close to a SD(P).