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How long does a Prolong recipient live?

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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by isaac_newton   » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:14 pm

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Robert_A_Woodward wrote: SNIP


I would expect that even WITHOUT Prolong, state of the art medical science in the Honorverse era would extend the useful human life from today's expectancy of 70 to 80 years to a possible 120 years or more, give or take depending upon the abuse you might heap on your body from "recreational" drugs or other such idiocy.



In fact, we have some examples of people, RMN Admirals, who never received prolong. Hamish's father was over 110 T-years old during _On Basilisk Station_. He had died sometime in the interval between that and _The Honor of the Queen_. Vice Admiral Jonas Adcock was 114 at the time of _In Enemy Hands_ (I think he died 2 years later).[/quote]

How does Rajampret's experience play into this... IFRC
1) he was an early Prolong recepient
2) he had been in the Solarian Navy for decades not centuries
3) he certainly gives the impression of "getting on"
4) his deputy [whats his name?] was looking forward to 'ascending' to his office in a couple of decades more [I think I recall this, well before the crisis really broke?].

That doesn't seem to tie up with 300-400years life span.

Maybe the early Prolong wasn't so effective or maybe??
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:34 pm

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kzt wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:I'd like to see textev on the idea that Manpower is using prolong to create sex slaves for people with [redacted] tastes. Not that I would put it past them, but my limited knowledge of the situation suggests that it wouldn't create the product that such people want.

I remember suggesting it here, not sure it ever made it into a book. But given the way that manpower is set up and what they are noted to have done, modifying prolong to exaggerate the aging pause at early tanner stage 3 or so seems like a perfectly logical move for them if it's fairly easy to do and has customer demand. There are a huge number of brain changes that start occurring at age 10-11 or so that they would want to slow in concert, so intellectually they stay kids. Not nice people.


Thanks for pointing me at the Tanner scale. There's a comment at the end of one of the snippets on the snippet site that Generation 3 prolong can be administered before puberty starts, but it's rarely done.

I have serious problems with the scenario. There are two situations. Either the slave is going to be sold to someone with those tastes, or ce will be at a Manpower resort for rental to patrons of the resort. In the first case, Prolong would be an obvious sales point, but there's an issue with keeping people's lips zipped about what's going on. In the second case, I can't see them bothering with prolong.

While I remember a number of "exotics," the only mention of actual perversions seems to be with pirates and slavers; the situation in Let's Dance comes to mind. But none of that involved prolong.

The first two mentions of genetic sex slaves or exotics is either Ginny Usher or Paulo A's ancestors. (I've forgotten which came first in publication order.)

The woman with blue hair on a political show is probably one of Eric Flint's characters. She inherited it from an ancestor who was an "exotic."

We have the officer in SoV who has cat adaptations, likewise inherited.

Rufino C.'s girlfriend/mistress/agent/assistant seems to be another out of the same mold as Ginny Usher. Possibly Captain Gweon's "fiancee" and control is another.

None of these involve actual sexual perversions.

I've got problems with the genetics on the woman with blue hair and the woman with cat features. The first problem is very simple: given the amount of hair dyeing, etc, I would expect that DNA mods to change hair color to just about any imaginable shade are readily available. In fact, I have a vague memory of a story where a school-girl had her hair modified so it was a plaid that matched the skirt on her school uniform.

The cat modifications bring up a different issue. The Beowulf code's prohibition against mixing non-human DNA is, in my considered opinion, not even wrong. It stinks of essentialism. The genetic programs to produce a body plan are really intricate and almost certainly couldn't be transferred by the equivalent of a simple copy and paste.
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:46 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:I have serious problems with the scenario. There are two situations. Either the slave is going to be sold to someone with those tastes, or ce will be at a Manpower resort for rental to patrons of the resort. In the first case, Prolong would be an obvious sales point, but there's an issue with keeping people's lips zipped about what's going on. In the second case, I can't see them bothering with prolong.

The whole keeping people's lips zipped is sort of just handwaved away in the series. Certain parts of the current world still believe and support slavery, but they are mostly isolated backwaters. Heck, slavery was still legal in the 60s in the middle east and de-facto slavery still exists there and in some Asian countries.

But not in 1st world societies. It still happens, but it's clearly considered a criminal matter and people go to jail (or get deported if the are a foreign government official with immunity). An unless you are Bill Clinton, famous people hanging out with with convicted child molesters at their isolated foreign estates without your government security detail is generally something that makes you a pariah.

So while I can see it existing in certain societies, I don't see a huge market for it in the Honorverse or being able to gain a lot of power over senior officials.. It's a conceit needed to build a villain for the story to be told.
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:12 pm

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isaac_newton wrote:
How does Rajampret's experience play into this... IFRC
1) he was an early Prolong recepient
2) he had been in the Solarian Navy for decades not centuries
3) he certainly gives the impression of "getting on"
4) his deputy [whats his name?] was looking forward to 'ascending' to his office in a couple of decades more [I think I recall this, well before the crisis really broke?].

That doesn't seem to tie up with 300-400years life span.

Maybe the early Prolong wasn't so effective or maybe??

Rajampet did get 1st gen prolong - Mission of Honor is clear on that; though he almost didn't. The 1st gen treatment became available only months before he'd have been too old for it.

He "was a hundred and twenty-three years old, which made him one of the oldest human beings alive", had been an officer in the SLN since he was 19 (so 104 years), but hadn't held a space-going command in over 50 years.

I'm not sure who you're referring to as Rajampet's aide - I didn't stumble across the passage about ascending to his office. But the likely candidates are Kingsford or Jennings.
"Fleet Admiral Winston Seth Kingsford was the commanding officer of the Solarian League Navy’s Battle Fleet. That made him Rajampet’s heir apparent as chief of naval operations, and Admiral Wil-lis Jennings was Kingsford’s chief of staff." [ART]

But even if Kingsford (who did ultimately replaced Rajampet as CNO) did expect to take the role in a decade or two that doesn't necessarily imply that Rajampet was expecting to retire at only 135 - 150 years old; that simply could have been the expectation that the Navy would reshuffle it's chairs occasionally with Rejampet moving on to some other command (or simply being bored with this and jumping over to a civilian department; or less plausibly given his temperament taking a break before assuming a second career)

I don't think we can judge much about even 1st gen pro-long lifespan from something an nebulous as when someone might expect to step into the role currently held by a 123 year old.
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by cthia   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:24 am

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> the planets w/o < captured Solly threads

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:08 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
How does Rajampret's experience play into this... IFRC
1) he was an early Prolong recepient
2) he had been in the Solarian Navy for decades not centuries
3) he certainly gives the impression of "getting on"
4) his deputy [whats his name?] was looking forward to 'ascending' to his office in a couple of decades more [I think I recall this, well before the crisis really broke?].

That doesn't seem to tie up with 300-400years life span.

Maybe the early Prolong wasn't so effective or maybe??

Rajampet did get 1st gen prolong - Mission of Honor is clear on that; though he almost didn't. The 1st gen treatment became available only months before he'd have been too old for it.

He "was a hundred and twenty-three years old, which made him one of the oldest human beings alive", had been an officer in the SLN since he was 19 (so 104 years), but hadn't held a space-going command in over 50 years.

I'm not sure who you're referring to as Rajampet's aide - I didn't stumble across the passage about ascending to his office. But the likely candidates are Kingsford or Jennings.
"Fleet Admiral Winston Seth Kingsford was the commanding officer of the Solarian League Navy’s Battle Fleet. That made him Rajampet’s heir apparent as chief of naval operations, and Admiral Wil-lis Jennings was Kingsford’s chief of staff." [ART]

But even if Kingsford (who did ultimately replaced Rajampet as CNO) did expect to take the role in a decade or two that doesn't necessarily imply that Rajampet was expecting to retire at only 135 - 150 years old; that simply could have been the expectation that the Navy would reshuffle it's chairs occasionally with Rejampet moving on to some other command (or simply being bored with this and jumping over to a civilian department; or less plausibly given his temperament taking a break before assuming a second career)

I don't think we can judge much about even 1st gen pro-long lifespan from something an nebulous as when someone might expect to step into the role currently held by a 123 year old.


Thanks for that... I was thinking about Kingsford... I seem to recall him thinking about the view from R's office which he would attain in due time :-)

You are quite correct that we can't really make any solid judgements on Prolong from that - it just struck me as interesting!

BTW - a small question - what other office would not be seen by R as a demotion and therefore to be rejected?
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:20 am

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isaac_newton wrote:
BTW - a small question - what other office would not be seen by R as a demotion and therefore to be rejected?


The thing he really wanted was to be able to sit at the table with the cool kids - the Mandarins.
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by DMcCunney   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:31 am

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JohnRoth wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:BTW - a small question - what other office would not be seen by R as a demotion and therefore to be rejected?
The thing he really wanted was to be able to sit at the table with the cool kids - the Mandarins.
Yep.

Part of his incentive in accepting enormous bribes from Manpower was his anger at the Permanent Undersecretaries who really ran the League. He felt that as CO of Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet, and with the size of the SLN and the amount of the budget pie it got, he deserved a seat at that table, and felt that he was being treated as a uniformed flunky to be summoned and dismissed at their whim.

A good chunk of his motivation was spite - "When the time comes, I'll show them, and won't they be sorry they treated me this way!"

But spite as a motivation is common in the Honorverse. The fundamental strategy the Mesan Alignment has been pursuing for six centuries is institutionalized spite inherited from Leonard Detweiler, who took the Beowulfan medical establishment's rejection of his proposed eugenics program very personally and stomped off in a snit to Mesa. The Alignment's plan to fracture the Solarian League, replace it with their own instrument, and in the fullness of time force their notions down the galaxy's collective throat is the biggest case of "We'll show you! imaginable.
______
Dennis
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by isaac_newton   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:19 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
isaac_newton wrote:
BTW - a small question - what other office would not be seen by R as a demotion and therefore to be rejected?


The thing he really wanted was to be able to sit at the table with the cool kids - the Mandarins.


True, true - but surely he would want to be there by virtue of his Naval rank - not by some sideways transfer to the Civil Service, where he would have no train of henchmen, no streams of 'blessings' he could turn off or on as required...
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Re: How long does a Prolong recipient live?
Post by Dauntless   » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:26 pm

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given how new living to 150 would be I can see a mandatory retirement just from some old left over rule that said any officer older then 150.

assuming that they had bumped mandatory retirement that high after initial prolong made it possible that there might be officers that old still in service.
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