long ranged CM

John Prigent wrote:This is probably a silly idea, but I'll float it anyway. I'm thinking of times when unsuspecting enemies have found themselves talking direct to Honor although light-minutes away, thanks to undetectable drones with FTL relay communication. Do we know how big a drone can be concealed under stealth to the standard of those ones? Would it be possible to fit stealthed drones to carry CMs as well as FTL? If it would, imagine the results of an order to fire that saw the Solarian ship-killers destroyed close to the launching ships.
Cheers
John

We see drones get within enemy weapons range of SL ships, but I don't think it is practical.

First, once the CM is fireed, that is a big flare that "drone is here"

Second, even if you doubled the size of the drone, you wouldn't be able to fit even a dozen CM's in place. Spend an hour sneeking it into range and it is good for just a dozen CM shots, than back to the ship to rearm, a two hour round trip when most battles last less than an hour once the shooting starts.

darrell wrote:We see drones get within enemy weapons range of SL ships, but I don't think it is practical.

First, once the CM is fireed, that is a big flare that "drone is here"

Second, even if you doubled the size of the drone, you wouldn't be able to fit even a dozen CM's in place. Spend an hour sneeking it into range and it is good for just a dozen CM shots, than back to the ship to rearm, a two hour round trip when most battles last less than an hour once the shooting starts.

Given how close Manticoran recon drones and Hermes Buoys can get to opponents' ships, perhaps PDLCs would be more useful than CMs? Microfusion power plants should give a reasonable number of shots before the Drone could be localized and destroyed -- if the Drone(s) stayed in place to be localized.

Staying just outside energy range would make early interception of attack missiles feasible and PDLCs would eliminate the need to return and rearm with CMs.

The problem would come in the size of CMs or PDLCs. Such an anti-missile drone would rival that of a LAC and RFC has ruled out any possibility of autonomous or remote controlled LACs.

Thing is, the further out you force the shipkillers headed at you to manuever, the less likely those missiles can remain on target. RFC has already stated that there's a "gunsmoke" problem at the close in range... so given the likelihoood of a miss at extended CM missile ranges...

My solution is the miss angle is tiny but "computer power is tinier". Given that factor, a stepped down CM "impeller burn" ought to have the extended range, but it raises the miss likelihood in terms of "aim". So equip the things with a check at close to the CM/shipkiller intercept point that instructs the CM to nuke instead of colliding if the wedge is going to miss or if there's a possibility of blinding more attack missiles permanently in the pre-flyby.

In fact, if peace hadn't broken out in the Haven Sector, that would have been my own "armchair admiral as Shannon Foraker" approach to negating Apollo, that is, longer ranged CM to take out the control missile's "eyes" in the shipkillers. Not that Eighth Fleet was going to give Haven enough respite to get that counter into production.

Thoughts?

Unfortunately Shark, any form of "stepping down" a CM's drive strength at a time when MDM's (in all shapes and forms) are getting into more hands, is a bad idea.

Recall, one of the problems in some battle (honestly cant recall which atm), the counter missiles were slower than the missiles they were trying to collide with, so probably Solarian CMs. MDM's are extremely fast by the time they're approaching the edge of burning out, if your CM's are not faster then you may as well not have any CMs and just use the tonnage for more PDLCs.


So given the limitations we have, the only real options are increasing the burn time without sacrificing speed, increasing the CM's own sensor sensitivity (less babysitting), or somehow cramming FTL receivers into them.

Of the three options, the third should honestly be fairly simple. You don't need a big assembly to receive data only, with no ability to transmit back, and one-way links dont have to last very long. There'd be a small size increase to squeeze the receiver in, but they'd probably end up fairly close to the size of Vipers, and definitely smaller than the shipkippers of Shrike-B's and Ferrets.

And functionally, either the CM(s) you just gave FTL instructions too hit the missile you were intending to hit, or they don't and you've already launched a second wave already. So it doesn't have to have Ghost Rider RD drone level of endurance in the receiver, it only needs to work for ~30-45 seconds, and its either hit a missile, or it's cleanly missed everything.


I suspect Manticore (and Grand Alliance) will end up continuing gradual speed & performance increase in their CMs, but upping the self-seekers of the CMs. The less they need to babysit them, the more they can focus on putting more data to the CMs with tricky interceptions. Which is exactly what they already did with the initial Ghost Rider release, pre-Buttercup, which massively upped attack missiles ability to self-lock, and again with Apollo. Now it's time for defenses to get the same sensor upgrades.

No, how fast they are doesn't matter. How fast they can turn matters, and how much vector sideways can get generate matters.

kzt wrote:No, how fast they are doesn't matter. How fast they can turn matters, and how much vector sideways can get generate matters.

Yep, and the longer endurance of MDMs doesn't help them here, they still generate the same delta-v as their SDM counterparts. Their "forward" velocity doesn't affect how quickly they can alter their vector sideways. (Quite different than when you've got a medium to turn in where you might turn and redirect at least most of you velocity in a different direction.

The high terminal velocity might outrun a computer's ability to process position updates, if there were some unfortunate design decisions made for it. And It might make for a bit more uncertainly about where it will be at intercept time but only because it's further out when the CM launches, so the ship's sensor lock on the incoming might not be as good.

But as you know in the 60 or 75 seconds of a CM's flight the MDM can only displace from its original course by a distance of 1/2*a*t^2. So for a Manticoran MDM a = 46,000g, so even against a extended range CM it can dodge only 1.26 million km; still easily within the 3 million km range of the CM. Also unless the MDM switches targets it can only dodge away for half that time; which cuts down the max displacement to just 356,000 km.
Its initial velocity is irrelevant to that calculation; sure over that same time it's covering millions ok km towards the target, but it can't use that velocity to dodge.

Lets finish John's post.

Wedge opening is roughly 30 degrees up/down [SINE30 =0.5]and then it loses "lock". Some pearl said its closer to 3 degrees, but it is really old and frankly brain dead unless we are talking handwavium of gravitics, so the 3 degrees for gravitics could be true. Anyways for EMS sensors, that is plain dumb.

Max delta d laterally in last 60s, is roughly 400,000km at a range of 11Mkm when traveling at 0.6c(DDM) and 14.5Mkm(0.8c@MDM) @75s becomes 650,000km.

So, CM @ 2Mkm, said DDM, without losing lock, will be laterally at most 73,000km or barely outside of its 60,000km stand off attack range. MDM will be around 55,000km. Obviously you can add the 60,000km delta @ end point. So take 73,000+60,000 = 133,000km.

CM @130,000g ~2Mkm in ~60s, leaves 15s. 15s travels ~150,000km in any delta direction.
150,000 > 133,000.

Of course if one rubs 2 brain cells together and simply has the missile rotate 90 degrees, so its sensors are not blocked by its wedge, a missile will never lose lock, but according to text, missiles "lose lock" and this is a bad thing...

If 3 degrees, well then, max delta d is a mere ~86,000km + stand off attack range. Trivial for a CM to completely lose lock and then find its prey in regards to having the motor to "get there".

--really quick snip--

Somtaaw wrote:Unfortunately Shark, any form of "stepping down" a CM's drive strength at a time when MDM's (in all shapes and forms) are getting into more hands, is a bad idea.

Recall, one of the problems in some battle (honestly cant recall which atm), the counter missiles were slower than the missiles they were trying to collide with, so probably Solarian CMs. MDM's are extremely fast by the time they're approaching the edge of burning out, if your CM's are not faster then you may as well not have any CMs and just use the tonnage for more PDLCs.

Briefly arguing the point but willing to concede it f my "swag math" is off, especially for SL missiles on the low end, Apollo/RMN MDM's on the high.

My swag math says that "extended ranges require stepped down impeller drives", ergo a defending fleet's "long range CM" has time to get many more salvos into space. For Apollo, it's imperative to blind the attack missiles to deny the control missile "sighting" information, hence the extended range is still needed, though less CM launches would be available. But with "eight missiles clumped" it seems like a CM nuking itself in or around that small missile formation becomes a ver yke a high-value proposition. Question is, do the CM's have the ability to turn whatever remaining "range power" that they might have into a nuke starter.

SharkHunter wrote: But with "eight missiles clumped" it seems like a CM nuking itself in or around that small missile formation becomes a ver yke a high-value proposition. Question is, do the CM's have the ability to turn whatever remaining "range power" that they might have into a nuke starter.

Space is big. The missiles are in formation, but I doubt they are really that close together. And at the point where a CM is in range the control missile is pretty much all done.

SharkHunter wrote:--really quick snip--

Somtaaw wrote:Unfortunately Shark, any form of "stepping down" a CM's drive strength at a time when MDM's (in all shapes and forms) are getting into more hands, is a bad idea.

Recall, one of the problems in some battle (honestly cant recall which atm), the counter missiles were slower than the missiles they were trying to collide with, so probably Solarian CMs. MDM's are extremely fast by the time they're approaching the edge of burning out, if your CM's are not faster then you may as well not have any CMs and just use the tonnage for more PDLCs.

Briefly arguing the point but willing to concede it f my "swag math" is off, especially for SL missiles on the low end, Apollo/RMN MDM's on the high.

My swag math says that "extended ranges require stepped down impeller drives", ergo a defending fleet's "long range CM" has time to get many more salvos into space. For Apollo, it's imperative to blind the attack missiles to deny the control missile "sighting" information, hence the extended range is still needed, though less CM launches would be available. But with "eight missiles clumped" it seems like a CM nuking itself in or around that small missile formation becomes a ver yke a high-value proposition. Question is, do the CM's have the ability to turn whatever remaining "range power" that they might have into a nuke starter.

My guess is that 75 seconds is stepped down extended range mode.

The Mk-31 CM would have 25 seconds at full power 260kG's or 75 seconds at 130kG's

The Mk-30 would have 20 seconds at full power 260kG's or 60 seconds at 130kG's

The original CM's used in OBS would have a half power mode of 85kG's for 48 seconds, which would be 960,000KM or a full power mode of 170kG's for 16 seconds for 214kG's