Operation Treehouse

The yards in the Manticore were the most efficient in the known galaxy in terms of construction times. They were also, against any conventional (eg, not MAlign) tech among the most protected.

The satellite yards, such as those at Grendlesbane and to a lesser extent Hancock (and later Sidemore), were originally built as nodal fleet basis during the RMN Naval and Alliance buildup. It is actually quite likely that Grendlesbane was originally only going to be a regional Naval hub that was home to refit, resupply, and repair yards to allow units stationed in that region a faster turn-around (by a couple months) for small and easy repairs. From that humble start, the yard simply grew into a bigger Naval base and at some point it was large enough (and construction demands high enough) that the RMN realized they could just start building entire ships there.

But, I digress.. Those yards were never intended to be primary construction facilities. When you have the most efficient yards in the galaxy in your home system, a system also home to one of the best educational systems in the galaxy and a large population base, you make full use of it. Building things in Manticore was simply so much cheaper (for everyone - including private individuals), that there was no economic reason to build a 'hidden' yard.

Now the political aspect.. Unlike Haven, Manticore would have found it extremely difficult to 'hide' the types of money needed to first bring a yard online and then to pay for the ships being built there. Heck, you can read in House of Steel how tough it was to hide the money for GRAM and all the R&D that Adcock and Hemphill were doing.. And that was pennies on the dollar compared to the cost of a huge naval yard.

As far as the hiding how many ships you have argument. Realize that it takes roughly 2 T-years to build a SD. And also realize that neither Manticore nor Haven ever had a perfect count on enemy Naval size. Unless that secret yard was going to be massive (EG, 100k+ employees and the ability to build 50+ SDs at the same time), it would have been to small to really make an impact in the grand scheme of things. Further, unless said construction was going to just sit in the 'Treehouse' working up and practicing until needed it wouldn't have been a surprise. Just as neither Haven or Manticore had hard numbers of ships, they had reasonable estimates. If the RMN was 'sneaking' 5 SDs into their wall from the 'Treehouse' every 3 months Haven would have noticed the additional ships - just not where they were built. So unless you wanted to keep thousands of trained yard dogs building ships in a hidden system and then keeping those ships hidden until needed (while crewed by thousands more experienced crew members) it wouldn't of been a surprise.

Finally, until OB happened no one could even contemplate losing all 3 naval yards without both Home Fleet and the system itself being wrecked. At which point, as a single system entity, what would have been the point as your capital would have fallen and your nation destroyed?

I am flabbergasted by all the incorrect assumptions that have piled up here.

Manitcore did not build any ships. The RMN did not build any ships. Neither have they owned any ship yards. All 3 ship yards were privately owned and all the ships in the navy were contracted out to various builders. Those ship yards grew to such a stupendous size because of the profitability of war over the last 20 T-years.

Hauptman did not make his money from the wormholes. Transit fees are the governments money maker. He builds ships. Lots of ships. And even more ships. Building shipyards is his way to expand his business. Why not build more someplace a bit safer or even closer to another market? The Manticore junction only goes to so many places.

Honor Harrington knew of their vulnerability to being wiped out. They are way to close together. It is what she is paid to think of. So is Hamish Alexander. So was his brother. And Sonja and so many others. This is long before OB occurred. Prepare for what could happen and pray it doesn't. It has been repeated so many times in these books.

And Bolthole was a freak of nature. No other governments were building their own ship yards. The Sollies buy from Technodyne and others. Beowulf buys from Hauptman. It's business as usual.

Operation Treehouse is not a huge fleet shipyard. It is a starting point if the sh*t hits the fan. If it doesn't, it is still profitable to build freighters. Ask Hauptman.

To profit from building freighters,
the shipyard must sell them to buyers.

The buyers need to know where to place the orders.
OK, an office in Landing, on space station,
or at the Junction takes the orders.

Next, the buyers wonder where they are built.
They might wish to inspect during construction.
Hamptmann can show ships at known yards.
If from unknown yards, "inspect when delivered, and
refuse ship if unsatisfied."
Then buyers say "small refundable deposit,
and the rest of the price C. O. D."
Or else "you must keep deposits visible in banks,
or else buy Deposit Insurance!"

Then, if very many refusals, shipyard goes bankrupt.

But if, despite this, enough merchant ships are sold
to keep Treehouse Yard in business,
then there are lots of ships on public routes,
manned by lots of sailors, owned by many companies,
so there would be *many* people wondering where all of
these oh-so-convenient ships were built.
"Let's see, we picked them up *here* so they arrived
by one of these routes ..." and so on.

You can build things in secret,
OR you can use them in public.
Not both.

HTM

JPMorgan wrote:[snip - htm}
Operation Treehouse is not a huge fleet shipyard. It is
a starting point if the sh*t hits the fan. If it doesn't,
it is still profitable to build freighters.
Ask Hauptman.

The first chapter of OBS:

The shuttle quivered gently as its tractors reached out to the seventy-kilometer bulk of Her Majesty's Space Station Hephaestus, the Royal Manticoran Navy's premiere shipyard

The third chapter of TSVW:

The space station seemed larger every time Honor saw it . . . probably because it was. Hephaestus was the Royal Manticoran Navy's premiere shipyard, and the Navy's steadily accelerating building programs were mirrored by an equally steady growth in the station's size.

Not the Hauptman Cartel's premiere shipyard, the Royal Manticoran Navy.

SoS, Chapter 2:

HMSS Hephaestus was always crowded, especially now. With the abrupt, disastrous resumption of the war with Haven, the largest single shipyard the Navy owned was running at well over a hundred percent of its designed capacity. The destruction of the Grendelsbane satellite yards—and all the partially built warships in them—only made Hephaestus' frenetic pace even more frenzied.

There certainly are some civilian yards, but to claim the RMN has no yards of its own is completely wrong. And the RMN certainly operates most of the shipyards in the Star Empire.

Duckk wrote:The first chapter of OBS:

The shuttle quivered gently as its tractors reached out to the seventy-kilometer bulk of Her Majesty's Space Station Hephaestus, the Royal Manticoran Navy's premiere shipyard

The third chapter of TSVW:

The space station seemed larger every time Honor saw it . . . probably because it was. Hephaestus was the Royal Manticoran Navy's premiere shipyard, and the Navy's steadily accelerating building programs were mirrored by an equally steady growth in the station's size.

Not the Hauptman Cartel's premiere shipyard, the Royal Manticoran Navy.

SoS, Chapter 2:

HMSS Hephaestus was always crowded, especially now. With the abrupt, disastrous resumption of the war with Haven, the largest single shipyard the Navy owned was running at well over a hundred percent of its designed capacity. The destruction of the Grendelsbane satellite yards—and all the partially built warships in them—only made Hephaestus' frenetic pace even more frenzied.

There certainly are some civilian yards, but to claim the RMN has no yards of its own is completely wrong. And the RMN certainly operates most of the shipyards in the Star Empire.

The name means nothing. They may have had a small percentage of ownership but just like now on planet earth the ships are made by privately owned companies. The navies maintain the ships after construction but the builders train the navy yard dogs about their new ships and supply the parts to the navy after it leaves the privately owned slip. Hauptman and others of his ilk were the majority losers when the yards were destroyed. Not to downplay the loss of life of course. Lives trump cash every time.

I've taken the time to give you direct text proof that clearly states the RMN owns the shipyards. Please, find proof that unambiguously contradicts that proof.

Duckk wrote:I've taken the time to give you [/i]direct text proof[i] that clearly states the RMN owns the shipyards. Please, find proof that unambiguously contradicts that proof.

Come on, just because you have text evidence, have access to the series bible and have discussed this with David, what makes you think that you can talk authoritatively about this?

Pro tip for JPMorgan: Don't argue with Duckk on background issues unless you have really solid evidence, he knows the background intimately.

kzt wrote:Pro tip for JPMorgan: Don't argue with Duckk on background issues unless you have really solid evidence, he knows the background intimately.

Follow-up pro tip for JPMorgan - also keep an eye out for surprisingly authoritative sounding posts from runsforcelery. (That's David Weber's username here on this forum; but as he sometimes says he's just the author so what does he know)


I don't have time to do the research this morning to double check, but I was under the impression that at least as late as WWII the USN and RN both used a mix of Navy owned and operated shipyards, private shipyard specializing in naval construction, and (for the war effort) purely civilian yards building war emergency designs to merchant construction specs. But isn't the Portsmouth Royal Dockyard still an RN naval base (though it's role as a ship construction center has faded drastically over the years)
So I'm not sure that even on Earth the assumption that despite their name naval shipyards are commercial entities is always correct.

Jonathan_S wrote:

kzt wrote:Pro tip for JPMorgan: Don't argue with Duckk on background issues unless you have really solid evidence, he knows the background intimately.

Follow-up pro tip for JPMorgan - also keep an eye out for surprisingly authoritative sounding posts from runsforcelery. (That's David Weber's username here on this forum; but as he sometimes says he's just the author so what does he know)


I don't have time to do the research this morning to double check, but I was under the impression that at least as late as WWII the USN and RN both used a mix of Navy owned and operated shipyards, private shipyard specializing in naval construction, and (for the war effort) purely civilian yards building war emergency designs to merchant construction specs. But isn't the Portsmouth Royal Dockyard still an RN naval base (though it's role as a ship construction center has faded drastically over the years)
So I'm not sure that even on Earth the assumption that despite their name naval shipyards are commercial entities is always correct.

Runsforcelery? Oh what does David Weber's alter ego know? Perhaps Terran celery doesn't contain the needed ingredient to maintain his bond with the author.

Even though he's the god of the verses, has lost touch with reality. I've posted it again and again. Anyone who thinks that they can just kill off Honor Harrington and the Salamander both — the two most desirable characters in any series — without causing a mass exodus of pitchfork wielding, Terran-dogs-pulled sleds on all roads leading to South Carolina has simply lost touch with his Honorverse and is totally, absolutely, stark-raving-madly nSaNE.

Or, maybe the author proper is stark-raving-mad, after all, he does answer to the name of Mad Wizard Weber (MWW).
.

What are you going on about now? Authors (or any other creator of works) don't owe you anything. You are free to cease consuming their work at any time.